BILL MOYERS:
What did you mean, Joe, when you said that the triumph of TristanĆs view of Love and Vision of Love, this beginning of Romantic Love in The West was ƬLibido over CredoĆ®?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Well, the credo, ƬI Believe,Ć® and I believe not only in the laws, but I believe that these laws were instituted by God, and thereĆs no arguing with God. I mean, these laws are just a heavy weight on me, and disobeying those is sin, and it has to do with my eternal character.
BILL MOYERS: And The Libido?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The Libido is the impulse to life.
BILL MOYERS: Comes from where?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Comes from The Heart.
BILL MOYERS: And The Heart is what?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The Heart is the organ of opening up to somebody else. ThatĆs the human quality, as opposed to the animal qualities, which have to do with, primarily with self-interest. Opening up to that which is other is the opening of The Heart, and thatĆs as the troubadours saw it, it is the opening of The Heart.
BILL MOYERS: I can certainly understand, though, why The Church was threatened by this, because how can you have a church if everyoneĆs libido is his or her Own God?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Why not? Why canĆt The Church handle that? If you can sanctify a marriage that has been arranged, why canĆt you sanctify a marriage where two people have joined each other?
BILL MOYERS: So the courage to love became the courage to affirm against Tradition, whatever knowledge stands confirmed in oneĆs own experience.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah.
BILL MOYERS: Why was that important in the evolution of The West?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, it was important in that it gives The West this accent, as IĆve been saying, on the individual, that he should have faith in his experience, and not simply mouth terms that have come to him from other mouths. I think thatĆs the great thing in The West. The validity of the individualĆs experience of what humanity is, what life is, what values are, against the monolithic system.
BILL MOYERS: Was there some of this in the legend of the Holy Grail?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yes. Wolfram has a very interesting statement about the origin of the Grail. He says the Grail was brought from heaven by the neutral angels. There was the war in heaven between God and Lucifer, and the angelic hosts that sided one group with Lucifer, and the other with God. Pair of opposites, good and evil, God and Satan. The Grail was brought down through the middle, the way of the middle, by the neutral angels.
BILL MOYERS: What is the Grail representing, then?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, the Grail becomes the, what we call it, that which is attained and realized by people who have lived their own lives. So the story very briefly is of this Ć³ IĆm giving it now as Wolfram gives it Ć³ but this is just one version. The Grail King was a lovely young man, but he had not earned that position. And the Grail represents the fulfillment of the highest spiritual potentialities of the human consciousness. And he was a lovely young man, and he rode forth from his castle with the war cry, ƬAmor!Ć® And as heĆs riding forth, a Moslem, a pagan warrior, a Mohammedan warrior, comes out of the woods, a knight. And they both level their lances at each other, they drive at each other, and the lance of the grail king kills the Mohammedan, but the Mohammedan lance castrates the Grail King.
What that means is that the Christian separation of matter and spirit, of the dynamism of life and the spiritual, natural grace and supernatural grace, has really castrated nature. And the European mind, the European life, has been as it were, emasculated by this; true spirituality, which would have come from this, has been killed. And then what did the pagan represent? He was a person from the suburbs of Eden. He was regarded as a nature man, and on the head of his lance was written the word, ƬGrail.Ć® That is to say, nature intends the grail. Spiritual life is the bouquet of natural life, not a supernatural thing imposed upon it. And so the impulses of nature are what give authenticity to Life, not obeying rules come from a supernatural authority, thatĆs the sense of The Grail.
BILL MOYERS:
And The Grail that these romantic legends were searching for is the union once again of what had been divided? The Peace that comes from joining?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The grail becomes symbolic of an authentic life that has lived in terms of its own volition, in terms of its own impulse system, which carries it between the pairs of opposites, of good and evil, light and dark.
Wolfram starts his epic with a short poem saying,
ƬEvery act has both Good and Evil results.Ʈ
Every act in Life yields pairs of opposites in its results.
The Best We Can Do is lean toward The Light, that is to say, Intend The Light, and What The Light Is, is that of the harmonious relationships that come from compassion, with suffering, understanding of The Other Person.
This is what The Grail is about.
BILL MOYERS:
When we say God is Love, does that have anything to do with Romantic Love? Does mythology ever link Romantic love and God?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, thatĆs what it did do.
Love was a divine visitation, and thatĆs why it was superior to Marriage.
That was the troubadour idea.
If God is Love, well, then, Love is God, okay.
BILL MOYERS:
ThereĆs that wonderful passage in Corinthians by Paul, where he says
ƬLove beareth all things, endureth all things.Ʈ
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Well, thatĆs the same business. Love Knows No Pain.
BILL MOYERS:
And yet, one of my favorite stories of mythology is out of Persia, where there is the idea that Lucifer was condemned to hell because he loved God so much.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah, and thatĆs a basic Muslim idea, about Iblis, thatĆs the Muslim name for Satan, being GodĆs greatest lover.
Why was Satan thrown into hell?
Well, the standard Story is that when God created the angels, he told them to bow to none but himself.
Then he created Man, whom he regarded as a Higher Form Than The Angels, and he asked The Angels then to serve man.
And Satan would not bow to Man.
Now, this is interpreted in the Christian Tradition, as I recall from my boyhood instruction, as being The Egotism of Satan, he would not bow to Man.
But in this view, he could NOT bow to Ban, because of his Love for God, he could bow ONLY to God.
And then God says, ƬGet out of my sight.Ʈ
Now, the worst of the pains of hell insofar as hell has been described is The Absence of The beloved, which is God.
So how does Iblis sustain the situation in hell?
By The MEMORY of The Echo of GodĆs Voice when God said,
ƬGo to hell.Ʈ
And I think thatĆs A Great Sign of Love, do you agree?
BILL MOYERS: Well, itĆs certainly true in life that the greatest hell one can know is to be separated from the one you love.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah.
BILL MOYERS: ThatĆs why IĆve liked the Persian myth for so long. Satan as GodĆs lover.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah. And he is separated from God, and thatĆs the real pain of Satan.
BILL MOYERS: You once took the saying of Jesus. ƬLove your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven, for he makes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust.Ʈ You once took that to be the highest, the noblest, the boldest of the Christian teachings. Do you still feel that way?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, I think the main teaching of Christianity is, ƬLove your enemies.Ʈ
BILL MOYERS: Hard to do.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: I know, well, thatĆs it Ć³ I mean, when Peter drew his sword and cut off the servantĆs ear there, in the Gethsemane affair, and Jesus said, ƬPut up your sword, Peter,Ć® and put the ear back on, Peter has been drawing his sword ever since. And one can speak about Petrine or Christian Christianity in that sense. And I would say that the main doctrine of Christianity is the doctrine of Agape, of true love for he who is yours, him who is your enemy.
BILL MOYERS: How does one love oneĆs enemy without condoning what the enemy does, accepting his aggression?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, IĆll tell you how to do that. ƬDo not pluck the mole from your enemyĆs eye, but pluck the beam from your own,Ć® do you know?
Now, I have a friend whom I met by chance, a young Buddhist monk from Tibet. You know, in 1959 the Communists crashed down and bombed the palace of the Dalai Lama, bombarded Lhasa, and people murdered and all that kind of thing. And he escaped, he escaped at the time of the Dalai Lama. And those monasteries, I mean, there were monasteries with 5,000 monks, 6,000 monks, all wiped out, tortured and everything else. I havenĆt heard one word of incrimination of the Chinese from that young man. There is absolutely no condemnation of the Chinese here. And you hear this from the Dalai Lama himself. You will not hear a word of condemnation. This recognition of the way of life through which that vitality of the spirit is moving in its own way. I mean, these men are sufferers of terrific violence, and thereĆs no animosity. I learned religion from them.
BILL MOYERS: Do most of the stories of mythology, from whatever culture, say that suffering is intrinsically a part of life and that thereĆs no way around it?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: I think IĆd be willing to say that they do. I canĆt think of anything now that says if youĆre going to live, you wonĆt suffer. ItĆll tell you how to understand and bear and interpret suffering, that it will do. And when the Buddha says there is escape from suffering, the escape from sorrow is nirvana. Nirvana is a psychological position where you are untouched by desire and fear.
BILL MOYERS: But is that realistic? Does that happen?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yes, certainly.
BILL MOYERS: And your life becomes what?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Harmonious, well-centered and affirmative of life.
BILL MOYERS: Even with suffering.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Exactly. ThereĆs a passage in PaulĆs Epistle to the Philippians, isnĆt there? Be as Christ, for Christ did not think godhood something to be hung on to, to be clung to, but let go and came down and took life in the form of a servant, a servant even unto death. LetĆs say, come in and accept the suffering, and affirm it.
BILL MOYERS: So you would agree with Abelard in the 12th century, who said that JesusĆ death on the cross was not as ransom paid, as a penalty applied, but it was an act of atonement, atonement at one with the race.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
ThatĆs the most sophisticated interpretation of why Christ had to be crucified.
AbelardĆs idea was that this Ć oh, this is connected with The Grail King and everything else Ć that The Coming of Christ to be crucified and illustrating thus The Suffering of Life, removes ManĆs Mind from commitment to the things of This World in compassion. ItĆs in compassion with Christ that we turn to Christ, and so the injured one becomes the savior. It is the suffering that evokes the humanity of the human heart.
BILL MOYERS: So you would agree with Abelard that mankind yearning for God and God yearning for mankind in compassion met at that cross.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yes. And by contemplating the cross, you are contemplating the true mystery of life. And that love for this experience, no matter how horrific the experience, the love for it
BILL MOYERS: So thereĆs joy and pain in love.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah, there is. Love, you might say, is the burning point of life, and since all life is sorrowful, so is love. And the stronger the love, the more that pain, but love bears all things. Love itself is a pain, you might say, but is the pain of being truly alive.
BILL MOYERS: As Joseph Campbell pursued his quest across Europe for the stories of love and chivalry, he paused often to visit the great cathedrals. They too reflected the glory of love, the love of Mary, mother of God. Reverence for the power of the female is another grand theme in ancient mythology. In the primitive planting cultures, woman contributed importantly to the economic life of the community by participating in the growing and reaping of crops. And as the mother and nourisher of life, she was thought to assist the earth symbolically in its fertility. In fact, some believe there was even a golden age of the goddess until she was driven from the imagination by the emergence of patriarchal authority.
Of late, however, scientists have resurrected the name of an ancient goddess, Gaia, to express the idea of Earth as a living body on which we depend for life. In the last half of this conversation with Joseph Campbell, he takes us back to the time when the love of God meant the love for mother goddess, and he unites these themes in one image, the virgin birth, which to him represents the birth of spirit from matter, the birth of compassion in The Heart.
(interviewing) The LordĆs Prayer begins, ƬOur Father which art in heaven.Ć®
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yes.
BILL MOYERS: Could it have begun, ƬOur MotherƮ?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: This is a metaphorical image, this is a symbolic image, and to make the point that itĆs not your father, your physical father, we have ƬOur Father who art in heaven.Ć® But heaven again is a symbolic idea, where would it, heaven, be? It is no place. All of the references of religious and mythological images are to planes of consciousness or fields of experience potential in the human spirit, and these are to evoke attitudes and experiences that are appropriate to a meditation on the mystery of the source of your own being, I would say. So there have been systems of religion where the mother is the prime parent, the source, and sheĆs really a more immediate parent than the father, because one is born from the mother, and then the first experience of any infant is the mother, so that the image of woman is the image of The World. You might say that mythology is simply a translation of The World into a Mother image. We talk of Mother Earth and so forth.
BILL MOYERS: But what happened along the way, Joe, to this reverence that in primitive societies was directed toward the goddess figure, the great goddess, the Mother Earth? What happened to that?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: That comes in primarily with agriculture and the agricultural societies.
BILL MOYERS: Fertility and all of that?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: It has to do with the earth, the human woman does give birth as the earth gives birth to the plants. She gives nourishment as the plants do. So woman magic and earth magic are the same, they are related. And the personification, then, of this energy which gives birth to forms and nourishes forms is properly female. And so it is in the agricultural world of ancient Mesopotamia, the Egyptian Nile, but also in the earlier planting culture systems, that the goddess is the mythic form that is dominant.
BILL MOYERS: Because of this obvious perception of creation issue, fertility.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: ThatĆs right, and when you have a goddess as the creator, itĆs her own very body that is the universe. She is identical with the universe. And in Egypt, you have the mother heavens, Nut, the goddess Nut, who is represented as the whole heavenly sphere.
BILL MOYERS: So it would be natural for people trying to explain the wonders of the universe to look to the female figure as the explanation for what they saw in their own lives.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Not only that, but then when you move to a philosophical point of view, the female represents what in Kantian terminology we call the forms of sensibility. The female represents time and space itself. She is time and space, and the mystery beyond her is beyond pairs of opposites, so it isnĆt male and it isnĆt female. It neither is nor isnĆt, but everything is within her, so that the gods are her children. Everything you can think of, everything you can see, is the production of the goddess.
Oh, this is a wonderful story. The Vedic gods are together and they see a strange son of amorphous thing down the way, like a kind of smoky fog. And they say, Ƭ WhatĆs that?Ć® They donĆt know what it is. And Agni, the god of fire, says, ƬIĆll go find out who that is.Ć® So he goes up to this smoky thing and he says, ƬWho are you?Ć® And from the smoky thing the voice says, ƬWho are you?Ć® And he says, ƬIĆm Agni, IĆm the lord of fire, I can burn anything.Ć® And out of the fog there comes a piece of straw, it falls on the ground, it says, ƬLetĆs see you burn thatĆ® He canĆt burn it. He goes back, he says, ƬThis is strange.Ć®
Well, Vayu, the lord of winds, says, Ć®IĆll try.Ć® So he goes and the same thing, ƬI can blow anything around.Ć® Throws it down, ƬNow, letĆs see you blow thatĆ® Well, he canĆt. He goes back. Then a woman arrives, a beautiful, mysterious, mystic woman. And she instructs the gods and tells them who that is. ƬThat is the ultimate mystery of being, from which you boys have received your strength. And he can turn it on or off for you,Ć® you know. And there she comes as the one who illuminates the gods themselves concerning the ultimate ground of their own being.
BILL MOYERS: ItĆs the female wisdom.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
It's the female as the Giver of Forms.
She is the one who gave the forms and she knows where they came from.
BILL MOYERS: I wonder what it would have meant to us if somewhere along the way, we had begun the prayer ƬOur Mother,Ʈ instead of ƬOur Father.Ʈ What psychological difference would it have made?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, it makes a psychological difference in the character of the cultures. You have the basic birth of civilization in the Near East with the great river valleys then as the main source areas, the Nile, the Tigris-Euphrates, and then over in India, the Indus valley and later the Ganges.
This is The World of The Goddess;
all these rivers have Goddess names finally.
Then there come the invasions. These fighting people are herding people.
The Semites are herders of goats and sheep, and the Indo-Europeans of cattle.
They were formerly the hunters.
They translate a hunting mythology into a herding mythology, but itĆs animal oriented.
And when you have Hunters you have Killers, and when you have Herders, you have Killers, because theyĆre always in movement, nomadic, coming into conflict with other people and they have to conquer the area they move into.
This comes into the Near East, and this brings in the warrior gods, like Zeus, like Yahweh.
BILL MOYERS:
The sword and death,
instead of fertility.
