Your Purpose cannot be Bought or Sold.
Disney :
"We want to make something
for The Fans."
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| "My God! If Only I Could Get Out Of Here" -- illustration depicting plight of young women in "white slavery". Caption reads: "The midnight shriek of a young girl in the vice district of a large city, heard by two worthy men, started a crusade which resulted in closing up the dens of shame in that city." |
"...For the Frankfort School, the goal of a cultural elite in the modern, "capitalist" era must be to strip away the belief that art derives from the self-conscious emulation of God the Creator; "religious illumination," says Benjamin, must be shown to "reside in a profane illumination, a materialistic, anthropological inspiration, to which hashish, opium, or whatever else can give an introductory lesson."
At the same time, new cultural forms must be found to increase the alienation of the population, in order for it to understand how truly alienated it is to live without socialism.
Do not build on the good old days, but on the bad new ones," said Benjamin.
The proper direction in painting, therefore, is that taken by the late Van Gogh, who began to paint objects in disintegration, with the equivalent of a hashish-smoker's eye that "loosens and entices things out of their familiar world."
In music, "it is not suggested that one can compose better today" than Mozart or Beethoven, said Adorno, but one must compose atonally, for atonalism is sick, and "the sickness, dialectically, is at the same time the cure....The extraordinarily violent reaction protest which such music confronts in the present society ... appears nonetheless to suggest that the dialectical function of this music can already be felt ... negatively, as 'destruction.' "
The purpose of modern art, literature, and music must be to destroy the uplifting—therefore, bourgeois — potential of art, literature, and music, so that man, bereft of his connection to the divine, sees his only creative option to be political revolt.
"To organize pessimism means nothing other than to expel the moral metaphor from politics and to discover in political action a sphere reserved one hundred percent for images."
Thus, Benjamin collaborated with Brecht to work these theories into practical form, and their joint effort culminated in the Verfremdungseffekt ("estrangement effect"), Brecht's attempt to write his plays so as to make the audience leave the theatre demoralized and aimlessly angry. "
Darth Vader was not aimlessly angry.
Darth Vader did not have Daddy issues, and nobody bullied him at school.
Which makes him The Ultimate Father - free of all neuroses.
BILL MOYERS:
I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars”
At the same time, new cultural forms must be found to increase the alienation of the population, in order for it to understand how truly alienated it is to live without socialism.
Do not build on the good old days, but on the bad new ones," said Benjamin.
The proper direction in painting, therefore, is that taken by the late Van Gogh, who began to paint objects in disintegration, with the equivalent of a hashish-smoker's eye that "loosens and entices things out of their familiar world."
In music, "it is not suggested that one can compose better today" than Mozart or Beethoven, said Adorno, but one must compose atonally, for atonalism is sick, and "the sickness, dialectically, is at the same time the cure....The extraordinarily violent reaction protest which such music confronts in the present society ... appears nonetheless to suggest that the dialectical function of this music can already be felt ... negatively, as 'destruction.' "
The purpose of modern art, literature, and music must be to destroy the uplifting—therefore, bourgeois — potential of art, literature, and music, so that man, bereft of his connection to the divine, sees his only creative option to be political revolt.
"To organize pessimism means nothing other than to expel the moral metaphor from politics and to discover in political action a sphere reserved one hundred percent for images."
Thus, Benjamin collaborated with Brecht to work these theories into practical form, and their joint effort culminated in the Verfremdungseffekt ("estrangement effect"), Brecht's attempt to write his plays so as to make the audience leave the theatre demoralized and aimlessly angry. "
Darth Vader did not have Daddy issues, and nobody bullied him at school.
Which makes him The Ultimate Father - free of all neuroses.
I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars”
sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients.
And they’ve said that the most popular character
And they’ve said that the most popular character
among the children is Darth Vader.
GEORGE LUCAS:
Well, Children love Power because
GEORGE LUCAS:
Well, Children love Power because
children are The Powerless.
And so their fantasies all center on having power.
And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know?
And, some, you know, will be attracted to
And so their fantasies all center on having power.
And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know?
And, some, you know, will be attracted to
Luke Skywalker because he’s The Good Guy
GEORGE LUCAS:
But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.
And as time goes on, you discover that
He is more powerful because he’s the —
He’s The Ultimate Father Who is All Powerful.
BILL MOYERS:
This is where I disagree somewhat with our friend Joseph Campbell who said that :
" The Young Man has to slay his father before he can become an adult himself. "
It seems to me, and I think you’re right on here, that the — that
The Young Man has to identify —
has to recognize and acknowledge that
He is His Father and is not His Father.
"TO BE OR NOT TO BE?"
But Vader isn't evil - he's a good man who does incredibly evil things under extraordinary circumstances and extreme duress to protect the people he loves.
And then when those things are apparently gone and taken away from him, he just surrenders and stops caring - about any one or any thing.
Fuck Apocalypse Culture.
But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.
And as time goes on, you discover that
He is more powerful because he’s the —
He’s The Ultimate Father Who is All Powerful.
BILL MOYERS:
This is where I disagree somewhat with our friend Joseph Campbell who said that :
" The Young Man has to slay his father before he can become an adult himself. "
It seems to me, and I think you’re right on here, that the — that
The Young Man has to identify —
has to recognize and acknowledge that
He is His Father and is not His Father.
"TO BE OR NOT TO BE?"
But Vader isn't evil - he's a good man who does incredibly evil things under extraordinary circumstances and extreme duress to protect the people he loves.
Charlie Rose:
You've had every honor that a man could have. You've got Oscars --
George Lucas:
No.
Charlie Rose:
No Oscar?
George Lucas:
No Oscar. I got the --
Charlie Rose:
Why are they giving you this award then if you don't have an Oscar?
George Lucas:
I don't have anything. I don't really have a lot of awards, to be very honest with you. I have the Irving Thalberg Award and I get a lot of little awards.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
I've got two Emmys but I've never had an Academy Award. I have been nominated but I've never won. I'm too popular for that.
Charlie Rose:
Too popular? Meaning what?
George Lucas:
They don't give Academy Awards to popular films.
Charlie Rose:
Are you proud of the fact that you make films that people want to go see?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
Popularity is OK with you?
George Lucas:
Popular is OK with me. I think it's a very important part of society and if you're making a work of art or a film or whatever and nobody sees it, I don't see where it does anybody any good.
Charlie Rose:
I'll tell you who thinks it does do people good is Francis. Francis is making movies that satisfies one person.
George Lucas:
That's right. But I'm not sure with society at large it's helping much. And of course that's what I'm going to do now. I'm going to make movies that only I want to see and I want to do. I've always wanted to do that. I fell into popular movies by accident. I always disliked Hollywood theatrical movies. I didn't want to have anything to do with them. So --
Charlie Rose:
But you simply knew how to make them.
George Lucas:
I mean, guess it was embedded in my DNA. It's that particular thing which is -- I'm not sure whether it's a coincidence that people like Steven and I grew up in the same environment --
Charlie Rose:
Steven Spielberg?
George Lucas:
Steven Spielberg. We liked the movies. Same thing with Marty, there was a whole generation right there that were -- came of age in the '60s that grew up on movies.
I didn't really grow up on movies but it was a part of my life in terms of it wasn't -- you know, I came up at the beginning of television.
And the whole idea of visual storytelling and that sort of thing was at the right moment. I got in there and what we really -- what I wanted to do and what a lot of the people wanted to do was simply make films that people liked and enlighten them, entertain them.
And that's what we were in the business for.
We liked movies.
Charlie Rose:
But the irony of this is that you are considered one of the most innovative filmmakers ever in the history of cinema.
George Lucas:
But the innovation part is because I -- like I just hate the word "artist", but I will say the word "artist" -- they, for thousands of years, were also the scientists, the engineers and the artists because in order to accomplish certain works, especially in architecture, you had to figure out how to accomplish it because, you know, I mean, they sat with the Duomo in Florence for hundreds of years because they couldn't figure out how to put the dome on it. And Brunelleschi did it, went and studied the Pantheon and other places where they had big domes because they used to do it in Rome. But by the time they got to the Renaissance, it was after the Dark Ages and nobody knew how to do that stuff anymore. So he had to actually invent the ratcheting pulley in order to be able to get oxen to pull bricks up that high.
Charlie Rose:
So that's what you have done, you have been able to create new things simply because no one had done it before and you had to do it on your own?
George Lucas:
Because I had a story to tell. There was a gap between what is possible and where my vision is and I've had to fill that gap, which is what -- you don't invent technology and then figure out what to do with it. You come up with an artistic problem and then you have to invent the technology in order to accomplish it.
So it's the opposite of what most people think it is and any artist will tell you that.
And art, on all levels, is just technology, which is why it's -- you know, people will say, well, monkeys can do paintings.
Well, they can't really. They can do scribbling.
They can do like what my 2-year old does.
But if you want to say I want to convey an emotion to another human being, that's something only human beings can do.
Animals can do it by roaring in your face or biting your hand off and that usually has an effect.
But to do it in a painting, to do it in a play or in a story, in poetry or anything that's in the arts, you have to be a human being.
Charlie Rose:
So we talk about artists; filmmaker, innovator, director, storyteller --
George Lucas:
Well, a director is just somebody who's got a fetish with making the world to be the way he wants it to be, sort of narcissistic.
Charlie Rose:
That's you?
George Lucas:
All directors, they're no different.
Charlie Rose:
And you're a director.
George Lucas:
Yes. All directors are -- they're vaguely like emperors, which is I want to build the society to be -- to reflect me and what I want. And the great thing about -- you don't have to kill a lot of people and build a lot of stuff and spend a lot of money if you're a king and want to do that. It's good for society, obviously. But a director can do it with a lot less money and just say I'm going to create a world where people can fly.
Charlie Rose:
So what do "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" say about the world you want to create?
George Lucas:
Well, "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" were basically put together -- especially "Star Wars" more than "Indiana Jones" -- "Indiana Jones" was just done for fun to entertain people. And there were some messages in there about archeology and also what we believe in terms of myths and that sort of thing. But the real one is "Star Wars," and that was done in the same vein that what I was saying about the patron creates the propaganda and what I wanted to do was go back to some of the older propaganda, which was consistent through all the societies, which is mythology, but to say what do they all believe?
Because they were all -- this propaganda was created independently.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
And what are the things that they all actually believe? We're talking about relationships with your father, relationships with your society, relation to your history, relationships with the gods, all of this stuff is -- it's old. But there are psychological motifs that were created through storytelling, primarily oral storytelling, that explained what they believed in and who they believed in.
So what I wanted to do is go back and find the psychological motifs that underlined that because those grow out of a popularism and to say that not all but a majority of people -- boys -- have a certain psychological relationship with their fathers.
And that's been going on through history.
And trying to explain that, to say we know your darkest secret and, therefore, you're part of us because we all know the same things.
We know what you're thinking about your mother.
We know what you think about your brother.
We know what you think about your father, really.
And those are the things that make people say, hey, this is why we believe this stuff.
And, again, the crudest part of that in terms of the religious/spiritual thing is some people have taken those ideas and then distorted them.
And you end up in a cult, where they're using the psychological tools to make you adhere to their society. And part of it is they have to keep it closed.
Charlie Rose:
And to them.
George Lucas:
And to them. But it's the same thing. I mean -- and again, you go through history, you know, and even though in most cases you had open societies, but they really were because you were going to kill the people to go outside the wall. So let's build a wall all around the whole thing so we can defend ourselves. So they were self-fulfilling, isolated human events.
Charlie Rose:
Because you wear -- have worn all these hats, though -- filmmaker, director, storyteller, writer, a technological innovator -- what do you want the first line of your obituary to say?
George Lucas:
"I was a great dad." Or, I tried.
Charlie Rose:
But do you consider yourself any of those things first -- writer, storyteller, filmmaker, problem solver?
George Lucas:
Well, first is Dad. I mean, I gave up directing in order to become a dad. You know, for 15 years, directing, I just ran a company and was an innovator but it was not doing what I really liked to do, which is actually make movies.
Charlie Rose:
Because you wanted to be a dad?
George Lucas:
Because, yes, I -- and I never was -- it was one of those things where you don't expect it to happen.
But once I was a dad, it was like a bolt of lightning struck me.
And I ended up getting divorced around that time.
And I just decided, well, I think I'm just going to take care of my daughter, because that seems like the right thing to do.
You know, I made these -- it was right after "Return of the Jedi."
I said I'd made all these movies and I'm not going to escape "Star Wars" and my central concern was my daughter.
So I just said I'm going to raise my daughter.
And then we -- I adopted another daughter and then I adopted another son and it wasn't until, like, 15 years later that I actually said, OK, I'm going to go back now and make, direct movies again.
So it was very much -- and, in the meantime, I had developed a lot of technology to do things that I could not do when I was doing "Star Wars," because in "Star Wars," because it's a science fiction film, it's a fantasy film, it pushes the limit, the technological limits of the medium -- science fiction, fantasy, those sorts of things.
You really -- there's many things can't be done, they just can't.
And there is an equation ultimately, which is how popular is something, how much does it cost and then they subtract one for the other and decide whether they're going to do it or not. So a lot of the films -- when I was doing "Star Wars," right after "Star Wars" -- they didn't have room for spectacular. They only had room for street movies, which is what I had been doing before that. And so doing something that was sort of, you know, an epic, a historical piece, science fiction, fantasy, any of those things, you just couldn't do it because it cost too much money and technically you couldn't accomplish it.
Charlie Rose:
Kennedy Center honoree, that's a big deal. What does it mean to you?
George Lucas:
Well, I could be glib --
Charlie Rose:
No, just be real. I'm sitting here with a guy who's got -- who is the happiest he's probably ever been -- married, 2-year-old daughter, all the money he'll ever need -- sitting in this remarkable place where you live, so you've got everything. But here is a saying that you are really one of America's finest artists. What does that mean to you, that these people are going to honor you, sitting next to the president at the Kennedy Center?
George Lucas:
Well, you know --
Charlie Rose:
Don't be glib. Be real.
George Lucas:
Well, I will be real. I'm not much into awards. It doesn't mean that much to me because I've gone through this. And I know it's just a group of people get together and say we're going to give you this award. And a lot of them, it's just basically you're there to draw eyeballs.
Charlie Rose:
But there are awards and there are awards. And I've got to believe that this means something to you.
George Lucas:
Well, it does mean something to me.
Charlie Rose:
What is it?
George Lucas:
I don't know. It's -- you know, again, I've got the Medal of Arts, I've got the Medal of Technology and I've got the --
Charlie Rose:
So it's just another award -- you're just getting another award, you'll show up if you want him to but he doesn't care?
George Lucas:
Well, yes, it's -- you know, I know it's about the TV show, it's not about me.
Charlie Rose:
This is not a big TV show. The Kennedy Center Honors as a television show, doesn't do very well; it's shown in the middle of December.
George Lucas:
I know.
Charlie Rose:
So it's not about a TV show. It's not the Oscars. This is in Washington, you know, where all of Washington turns out and it, in fact, selects only five people each year.
And it's not based on what you've done that year, some -- one movie, it's based on what you have achieved in your career and, all of a sudden -- you know, and you're -- putting you up in a pantheon of people that you really admire, like your friend, Steven Spielberg. OK?
George Lucas:
We give each other awards all the time. Francis and I give awards to each other all the time. We're in a group; obviously Marty and I do the same thing, where we all happen to be and you've got to remember --
Charlie Rose:
Yes --
George Lucas:
-- I hate to say this but there are thousands of awards shows every year.
So, you know, I'll take a few, a couple of the ones that are meaningful to me, like the Kennedy Center Honors.
Those are the ones that I will participate in.
But I get a lot of other ones.
Charlie Rose:
Is there a competition at all between you and Steven?
George Lucas:
Sure.
Charlie Rose:
What is it?
George Lucas:
Who can do the better work.
Charlie Rose:
And how do you compare --
George Lucas:
And it's not better work in terms of -- it's the "oh, wow" factor. If I can do something and Steve says, "Oh, wow," then I won.
And he makes 10 times more movies than I do so I have to say "Oh, wow," a lot more than he does.
But I don't resent how many times. It's just that I enjoy the fact that I can see a movie and he can kind of one-up me and do something that I said, "Gee, that's unbelievable."
Charlie Rose:
Well, let me tell you what he says about you, "American Graffiti" is one of the best films ever made.
George Lucas:
Yes, but that's very easy to say.
Charlie Rose:
Because of what it was?
George Lucas:
No, because he went "Wow."
Charlie Rose:
Because he went "Wow"? And why did he go "Wow" over "American Graffiti"?
George Lucas:
Well, because it was so different and exuberant and --
Charlie Rose:
And -- OK, go ahead. What else?
George Lucas:
-- and had a lot of underpinnings of the kinds of things that a filmmaker wants to have in their movie, a lot of observations and sort of philosophical musings. And it was in the guise of an entertainment film. So most people didn't pay attention to any of that stuff but they knew it. They knew it immediately. You know, it's very -- again, critics have a tendency to be extremely glib. And they have to look at a movie a day or two movies a day and they just rattle off in an hour what their feelings are about it. As a result, you get a very surfacey kind of point of view or an ideological --
Charlie Rose:
OK. I'm asking a filmmaker, I'm not asking critics about this film.
George Lucas:
Filmmakers -- I know how to make movies. I went to film school, I have a knack for it, I studied it very well and practiced and I know what I'm doing. A lot of filmmakers try.
But, on the technical, telling a story, how you put the story together, how you make it effective emotionally, I know how to do that.
And part of it is I have a talent for it. Part of it is I've worked hard to create and figure out how to do it. And I'm reasonably effective at it. I've made a lot of movies -- as I tell people, I've produced more movies that were failures than successes. As a director, most of my films have been big successes except for one. So -- and a couple of ones I've produced have been huge successes but most of them haven't been. But I know that going in. I know what's going to work an what's not work going to work. But I do like movies. I love movies. And I know a lot of movies aren't popular and you can say that going in.
One of the reasons I retired is so I could make movies that aren't popular because, in the world we live in, in the system we've created for ourselves in terms of -- it's a big industry, you cannot lose money.
So the point is that you have to -- you are forced to make a particular kind of movie.
And I used to say this all the time when people -- you know, back when Russia was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
And they'd say, oh, but aren't you so glad that you're in America?
I said, well,
" I know a lot of Russian filmmakers and they have a lot more freedom than I have.
All they have to do is be careful about criticizing the government.
Otherwise they can do anything they want -- "
Charlie Rose:
And so what do you have to do?
George Lucas:
You have to adhere to a very narrow line of commercialism and there is only certain -- and, look, when I started in the '70s, it was like this. You know, I could say Russia was like this. But we were like this. You could do a certain kind of -- and I flaunted that system.
I mean, "THX", my first film was definitely not an American film and I shoved it in sideways.
Francis helped me trick the studio.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, right, right.
George Lucas:
-- but nobody -- they would have never let me make that movie if they knew what I was doing.
Charlie Rose:
Could George Lucas be George Lucas because early on he got the -- he owned the rights to make "Star Wars?"
George Lucas:
Well.
Charlie Rose:
You negotiated that coming out of the first film -- and, therefore, it made you very rich and made you very independent. So you'd have to make movies because you had independence and you had also built a great business in addition to making films. So, therefore, you could preach to anybody you wanted to preach to because you weren't dependent on anybody.
George Lucas:
Well, the issue is ultimately the reality of it, which is, I'm a unique blend of a practical person, pragmatic person and a fantasy -- completely daydreaming, you know, guy who's not very practical at all.
Charlie Rose:
And you combine those two.
George Lucas:
Well, I didn't but the DNA -- or we can say whatever force was at work there.
Charlie Rose:
To create -- whoever created George Lucas gave him those two skills.
George Lucas:
Yes, and they're the opposites.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
One of them is a -- and I've always been that way. Francis, when we started Zoetrope and started making movies, Francis was very much -- it was odd because when we started he was a Hollywood director.
Charlie Rose:
Right.
George Lucas:
And I was this crazy kid doing art films. And I said I'm never going to go into the theatrical film business. I only want to do art films. I'm going to do documentary films, documentaries, cinema verite, that sort of thing was just coming in. And this is what I'm going to do. I'm excited. My ambition then was ultimately to be Michael Moore. And --
Charlie Rose:
A documentary filmmaker?
George Lucas:
Yes. And, you know, and cause trouble because that's what I -- you know, and I grew up in the '60s, I'm a '60s kind of guy, I always have been. And I grew up in San Francisco Bay area and, you know, that's just -- that was my environment that I grew up in. And I was perfectly happy to do it. I did not want to make theatrical films. I was making kind of tone poems in school, I was winning awards.
You've had every honor that a man could have. You've got Oscars --
George Lucas:
No.
Charlie Rose:
No Oscar?
George Lucas:
No Oscar. I got the --
Charlie Rose:
Why are they giving you this award then if you don't have an Oscar?
George Lucas:
I don't have anything. I don't really have a lot of awards, to be very honest with you. I have the Irving Thalberg Award and I get a lot of little awards.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
I've got two Emmys but I've never had an Academy Award. I have been nominated but I've never won. I'm too popular for that.
Charlie Rose:
Too popular? Meaning what?
George Lucas:
They don't give Academy Awards to popular films.
Charlie Rose:
Are you proud of the fact that you make films that people want to go see?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
Popularity is OK with you?
George Lucas:
Popular is OK with me. I think it's a very important part of society and if you're making a work of art or a film or whatever and nobody sees it, I don't see where it does anybody any good.
Charlie Rose:
I'll tell you who thinks it does do people good is Francis. Francis is making movies that satisfies one person.
George Lucas:
That's right. But I'm not sure with society at large it's helping much. And of course that's what I'm going to do now. I'm going to make movies that only I want to see and I want to do. I've always wanted to do that. I fell into popular movies by accident. I always disliked Hollywood theatrical movies. I didn't want to have anything to do with them. So --
Charlie Rose:
But you simply knew how to make them.
George Lucas:
I mean, guess it was embedded in my DNA. It's that particular thing which is -- I'm not sure whether it's a coincidence that people like Steven and I grew up in the same environment --
Charlie Rose:
Steven Spielberg?
George Lucas:
Steven Spielberg. We liked the movies. Same thing with Marty, there was a whole generation right there that were -- came of age in the '60s that grew up on movies.
I didn't really grow up on movies but it was a part of my life in terms of it wasn't -- you know, I came up at the beginning of television.
And the whole idea of visual storytelling and that sort of thing was at the right moment. I got in there and what we really -- what I wanted to do and what a lot of the people wanted to do was simply make films that people liked and enlighten them, entertain them.
And that's what we were in the business for.
We liked movies.
Charlie Rose:
But the irony of this is that you are considered one of the most innovative filmmakers ever in the history of cinema.
George Lucas:
But the innovation part is because I -- like I just hate the word "artist", but I will say the word "artist" -- they, for thousands of years, were also the scientists, the engineers and the artists because in order to accomplish certain works, especially in architecture, you had to figure out how to accomplish it because, you know, I mean, they sat with the Duomo in Florence for hundreds of years because they couldn't figure out how to put the dome on it. And Brunelleschi did it, went and studied the Pantheon and other places where they had big domes because they used to do it in Rome. But by the time they got to the Renaissance, it was after the Dark Ages and nobody knew how to do that stuff anymore. So he had to actually invent the ratcheting pulley in order to be able to get oxen to pull bricks up that high.
Charlie Rose:
So that's what you have done, you have been able to create new things simply because no one had done it before and you had to do it on your own?
George Lucas:
Because I had a story to tell. There was a gap between what is possible and where my vision is and I've had to fill that gap, which is what -- you don't invent technology and then figure out what to do with it. You come up with an artistic problem and then you have to invent the technology in order to accomplish it.
So it's the opposite of what most people think it is and any artist will tell you that.
And art, on all levels, is just technology, which is why it's -- you know, people will say, well, monkeys can do paintings.
Well, they can't really. They can do scribbling.
They can do like what my 2-year old does.
But if you want to say I want to convey an emotion to another human being, that's something only human beings can do.
Animals can do it by roaring in your face or biting your hand off and that usually has an effect.
But to do it in a painting, to do it in a play or in a story, in poetry or anything that's in the arts, you have to be a human being.
Charlie Rose:
So we talk about artists; filmmaker, innovator, director, storyteller --
George Lucas:
Well, a director is just somebody who's got a fetish with making the world to be the way he wants it to be, sort of narcissistic.
Charlie Rose:
That's you?
George Lucas:
All directors, they're no different.
Charlie Rose:
And you're a director.
George Lucas:
Yes. All directors are -- they're vaguely like emperors, which is I want to build the society to be -- to reflect me and what I want. And the great thing about -- you don't have to kill a lot of people and build a lot of stuff and spend a lot of money if you're a king and want to do that. It's good for society, obviously. But a director can do it with a lot less money and just say I'm going to create a world where people can fly.
Charlie Rose:
So what do "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" say about the world you want to create?
George Lucas:
Well, "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" were basically put together -- especially "Star Wars" more than "Indiana Jones" -- "Indiana Jones" was just done for fun to entertain people. And there were some messages in there about archeology and also what we believe in terms of myths and that sort of thing. But the real one is "Star Wars," and that was done in the same vein that what I was saying about the patron creates the propaganda and what I wanted to do was go back to some of the older propaganda, which was consistent through all the societies, which is mythology, but to say what do they all believe?
Because they were all -- this propaganda was created independently.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
And what are the things that they all actually believe? We're talking about relationships with your father, relationships with your society, relation to your history, relationships with the gods, all of this stuff is -- it's old. But there are psychological motifs that were created through storytelling, primarily oral storytelling, that explained what they believed in and who they believed in.
So what I wanted to do is go back and find the psychological motifs that underlined that because those grow out of a popularism and to say that not all but a majority of people -- boys -- have a certain psychological relationship with their fathers.
And that's been going on through history.
And trying to explain that, to say we know your darkest secret and, therefore, you're part of us because we all know the same things.
We know what you're thinking about your mother.
We know what you think about your brother.
We know what you think about your father, really.
And those are the things that make people say, hey, this is why we believe this stuff.
And, again, the crudest part of that in terms of the religious/spiritual thing is some people have taken those ideas and then distorted them.
And you end up in a cult, where they're using the psychological tools to make you adhere to their society. And part of it is they have to keep it closed.
Charlie Rose:
And to them.
George Lucas:
And to them. But it's the same thing. I mean -- and again, you go through history, you know, and even though in most cases you had open societies, but they really were because you were going to kill the people to go outside the wall. So let's build a wall all around the whole thing so we can defend ourselves. So they were self-fulfilling, isolated human events.
Charlie Rose:
Because you wear -- have worn all these hats, though -- filmmaker, director, storyteller, writer, a technological innovator -- what do you want the first line of your obituary to say?
George Lucas:
"I was a great dad." Or, I tried.
Charlie Rose:
But do you consider yourself any of those things first -- writer, storyteller, filmmaker, problem solver?
George Lucas:
Well, first is Dad. I mean, I gave up directing in order to become a dad. You know, for 15 years, directing, I just ran a company and was an innovator but it was not doing what I really liked to do, which is actually make movies.
Charlie Rose:
Because you wanted to be a dad?
George Lucas:
Because, yes, I -- and I never was -- it was one of those things where you don't expect it to happen.
But once I was a dad, it was like a bolt of lightning struck me.
And I ended up getting divorced around that time.
And I just decided, well, I think I'm just going to take care of my daughter, because that seems like the right thing to do.
You know, I made these -- it was right after "Return of the Jedi."
I said I'd made all these movies and I'm not going to escape "Star Wars" and my central concern was my daughter.
So I just said I'm going to raise my daughter.
And then we -- I adopted another daughter and then I adopted another son and it wasn't until, like, 15 years later that I actually said, OK, I'm going to go back now and make, direct movies again.
So it was very much -- and, in the meantime, I had developed a lot of technology to do things that I could not do when I was doing "Star Wars," because in "Star Wars," because it's a science fiction film, it's a fantasy film, it pushes the limit, the technological limits of the medium -- science fiction, fantasy, those sorts of things.
You really -- there's many things can't be done, they just can't.
And there is an equation ultimately, which is how popular is something, how much does it cost and then they subtract one for the other and decide whether they're going to do it or not. So a lot of the films -- when I was doing "Star Wars," right after "Star Wars" -- they didn't have room for spectacular. They only had room for street movies, which is what I had been doing before that. And so doing something that was sort of, you know, an epic, a historical piece, science fiction, fantasy, any of those things, you just couldn't do it because it cost too much money and technically you couldn't accomplish it.
Charlie Rose:
Kennedy Center honoree, that's a big deal. What does it mean to you?
George Lucas:
Well, I could be glib --
Charlie Rose:
No, just be real. I'm sitting here with a guy who's got -- who is the happiest he's probably ever been -- married, 2-year-old daughter, all the money he'll ever need -- sitting in this remarkable place where you live, so you've got everything. But here is a saying that you are really one of America's finest artists. What does that mean to you, that these people are going to honor you, sitting next to the president at the Kennedy Center?
George Lucas:
Well, you know --
Charlie Rose:
Don't be glib. Be real.
George Lucas:
Well, I will be real. I'm not much into awards. It doesn't mean that much to me because I've gone through this. And I know it's just a group of people get together and say we're going to give you this award. And a lot of them, it's just basically you're there to draw eyeballs.
Charlie Rose:
But there are awards and there are awards. And I've got to believe that this means something to you.
George Lucas:
Well, it does mean something to me.
Charlie Rose:
What is it?
George Lucas:
I don't know. It's -- you know, again, I've got the Medal of Arts, I've got the Medal of Technology and I've got the --
Charlie Rose:
So it's just another award -- you're just getting another award, you'll show up if you want him to but he doesn't care?
George Lucas:
Well, yes, it's -- you know, I know it's about the TV show, it's not about me.
Charlie Rose:
This is not a big TV show. The Kennedy Center Honors as a television show, doesn't do very well; it's shown in the middle of December.
George Lucas:
I know.
Charlie Rose:
So it's not about a TV show. It's not the Oscars. This is in Washington, you know, where all of Washington turns out and it, in fact, selects only five people each year.
And it's not based on what you've done that year, some -- one movie, it's based on what you have achieved in your career and, all of a sudden -- you know, and you're -- putting you up in a pantheon of people that you really admire, like your friend, Steven Spielberg. OK?
George Lucas:
We give each other awards all the time. Francis and I give awards to each other all the time. We're in a group; obviously Marty and I do the same thing, where we all happen to be and you've got to remember --
Charlie Rose:
Yes --
George Lucas:
-- I hate to say this but there are thousands of awards shows every year.
So, you know, I'll take a few, a couple of the ones that are meaningful to me, like the Kennedy Center Honors.
Those are the ones that I will participate in.
But I get a lot of other ones.
Charlie Rose:
Is there a competition at all between you and Steven?
George Lucas:
Sure.
Charlie Rose:
What is it?
George Lucas:
Who can do the better work.
Charlie Rose:
And how do you compare --
George Lucas:
And it's not better work in terms of -- it's the "oh, wow" factor. If I can do something and Steve says, "Oh, wow," then I won.
And he makes 10 times more movies than I do so I have to say "Oh, wow," a lot more than he does.
But I don't resent how many times. It's just that I enjoy the fact that I can see a movie and he can kind of one-up me and do something that I said, "Gee, that's unbelievable."
Charlie Rose:
Well, let me tell you what he says about you, "American Graffiti" is one of the best films ever made.
George Lucas:
Yes, but that's very easy to say.
Charlie Rose:
Because of what it was?
George Lucas:
No, because he went "Wow."
Charlie Rose:
Because he went "Wow"? And why did he go "Wow" over "American Graffiti"?
George Lucas:
Well, because it was so different and exuberant and --
Charlie Rose:
And -- OK, go ahead. What else?
George Lucas:
-- and had a lot of underpinnings of the kinds of things that a filmmaker wants to have in their movie, a lot of observations and sort of philosophical musings. And it was in the guise of an entertainment film. So most people didn't pay attention to any of that stuff but they knew it. They knew it immediately. You know, it's very -- again, critics have a tendency to be extremely glib. And they have to look at a movie a day or two movies a day and they just rattle off in an hour what their feelings are about it. As a result, you get a very surfacey kind of point of view or an ideological --
Charlie Rose:
OK. I'm asking a filmmaker, I'm not asking critics about this film.
George Lucas:
Filmmakers -- I know how to make movies. I went to film school, I have a knack for it, I studied it very well and practiced and I know what I'm doing. A lot of filmmakers try.
But, on the technical, telling a story, how you put the story together, how you make it effective emotionally, I know how to do that.
And part of it is I have a talent for it. Part of it is I've worked hard to create and figure out how to do it. And I'm reasonably effective at it. I've made a lot of movies -- as I tell people, I've produced more movies that were failures than successes. As a director, most of my films have been big successes except for one. So -- and a couple of ones I've produced have been huge successes but most of them haven't been. But I know that going in. I know what's going to work an what's not work going to work. But I do like movies. I love movies. And I know a lot of movies aren't popular and you can say that going in.
One of the reasons I retired is so I could make movies that aren't popular because, in the world we live in, in the system we've created for ourselves in terms of -- it's a big industry, you cannot lose money.
So the point is that you have to -- you are forced to make a particular kind of movie.
And I used to say this all the time when people -- you know, back when Russia was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
And they'd say, oh, but aren't you so glad that you're in America?
I said, well,
" I know a lot of Russian filmmakers and they have a lot more freedom than I have.
All they have to do is be careful about criticizing the government.
Otherwise they can do anything they want -- "
Charlie Rose:
And so what do you have to do?
George Lucas:
You have to adhere to a very narrow line of commercialism and there is only certain -- and, look, when I started in the '70s, it was like this. You know, I could say Russia was like this. But we were like this. You could do a certain kind of -- and I flaunted that system.
I mean, "THX", my first film was definitely not an American film and I shoved it in sideways.
Francis helped me trick the studio.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, right, right.
George Lucas:
-- but nobody -- they would have never let me make that movie if they knew what I was doing.
Charlie Rose:
Could George Lucas be George Lucas because early on he got the -- he owned the rights to make "Star Wars?"
George Lucas:
Well.
Charlie Rose:
You negotiated that coming out of the first film -- and, therefore, it made you very rich and made you very independent. So you'd have to make movies because you had independence and you had also built a great business in addition to making films. So, therefore, you could preach to anybody you wanted to preach to because you weren't dependent on anybody.
George Lucas:
Well, the issue is ultimately the reality of it, which is, I'm a unique blend of a practical person, pragmatic person and a fantasy -- completely daydreaming, you know, guy who's not very practical at all.
Charlie Rose:
And you combine those two.
George Lucas:
Well, I didn't but the DNA -- or we can say whatever force was at work there.
Charlie Rose:
To create -- whoever created George Lucas gave him those two skills.
George Lucas:
Yes, and they're the opposites.
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
One of them is a -- and I've always been that way. Francis, when we started Zoetrope and started making movies, Francis was very much -- it was odd because when we started he was a Hollywood director.
Charlie Rose:
Right.
George Lucas:
And I was this crazy kid doing art films. And I said I'm never going to go into the theatrical film business. I only want to do art films. I'm going to do documentary films, documentaries, cinema verite, that sort of thing was just coming in. And this is what I'm going to do. I'm excited. My ambition then was ultimately to be Michael Moore. And --
Charlie Rose:
A documentary filmmaker?
George Lucas:
Yes. And, you know, and cause trouble because that's what I -- you know, and I grew up in the '60s, I'm a '60s kind of guy, I always have been. And I grew up in San Francisco Bay area and, you know, that's just -- that was my environment that I grew up in. And I was perfectly happy to do it. I did not want to make theatrical films. I was making kind of tone poems in school, I was winning awards.
Francis and I moved to San Francisco because we didn't -- neither one of us liked
the Hollywood environment.
We started a company up here.
And I got to take one of my student films
and turn it into a feature, which was --
Charlie Rose:
"THX."
George Lucas:
Yes, but it was a tone poem film.
Charlie Rose:
"THX."
George Lucas:
Yes, but it was a tone poem film.
It was just a visual storytelling. You know, the characters and the plot were not as important as the metaphor and the symbolism and, as a result -- and the emotional connection between the moving image and the audience. So I did that.
And, obviously, it -- our company went bankrupt and Francis destroyed everything.
But it -- like there is always a silver lining.
You know, it caused him to be forced
to pay off the debts, which meant
he had to go do "The Godfather."
He challenged me
as he was walking out the door.
He says, "Stop doing this artsy-fartsy stuff."
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
"Make a movie. Make a comedy. I dare you make a comedy." And I said, "Well, I can do that. That's no big -- I can do anything." I'm in my 20s.
Charlie Rose:
I'm George Lucas.
George Lucas:
No, it's not -- has nothing to do with George Lucas.
It has to do with
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
George Lucas:
"Make a movie. Make a comedy. I dare you make a comedy." And I said, "Well, I can do that. That's no big -- I can do anything." I'm in my 20s.
Charlie Rose:
I'm George Lucas.
George Lucas:
No, it's not -- has nothing to do with George Lucas.
It has to do with
I'm 23, I can do anything.
You know, that's what you think.
By 30, you get that beaten out of you.
But when you're young, you sort of think you can do anything, so I did it.
And that was successful and that started me on a whole different train to do, -- again, when I started "Star Wars," I certainly didn't think it was going to be a hit, I didn't think "American Graffiti" was going to be a hit.
I had no idea and -- beginning "American Graffiti" was -- the studio hated the film
You know, that's what you think.
By 30, you get that beaten out of you.
But when you're young, you sort of think you can do anything, so I did it.
And that was successful and that started me on a whole different train to do, -- again, when I started "Star Wars," I certainly didn't think it was going to be a hit, I didn't think "American Graffiti" was going to be a hit.
I had no idea and -- beginning "American Graffiti" was -- the studio hated the film
so much they shelved it
and they said you can't --
we're not going to even release this.
Maybe we're going to see if we can
release it as a movie of the week.
But we can't release it in theaters,
But we can't release it in theaters,
it's not that good. So that's where I was.
And then I started working on "Star Wars" and I was just doing it because I needed a job to pay, you know, to eat. And I wanted to do this kind of experimentalish -- in my mind -- idea about mythology and take films that I loved when I was young, which was Republic serials, and transform the kind of movie I wanted to make into a very popular genre. And out of that came both "Indiana Jones" and "Star Wars."
But you know, it was -- I wanted the -- I thought that was my last movie of this thing, then I was going back to what I really wanted to do. And I said, you know, at least at the end, I wanted to have done an old- fashioned movie, an -- on sound stages with makeup people and, you know, sets and, you know, do the thing, make one of those movies before I'm kicked out.
And, you know, it -- the fluke of "American Graffiti" becoming a hit was, like, oh, my God, now what? But I guess that will be the only time that will ever happen. So I got a hit, so I'll make this movie, which probably won't be a hit. But --
Charlie Rose:
"Star Wars."
George Lucas:
-- yes, "Star Wars." But you know when you describe "Star Wars," you're saying it's a space opera. It's not a science fiction film. You know, we have large dogs flying spaceships and you'd even describe it and people would say, oh, dear, this guy's off, you know --
Charlie Rose:
He's in his own world.
George Lucas:
And, of course, most of my friends are of the -- where I was persuasion. I was further into the art world than they were. But I threw that all away after "American Graffiti." I mean, "Graffiti" was, again -- I mean, nobody expected me to do a comedy based on "THX." So I said -- and I'm not that funny a guy in real life.
Charlie Rose:
“I'll show Francis I can do a comedy.”
George Lucas:
I'll show those guys. And then -- but then when I was started going to "Star Wars," they said, why are you making a children's film? I said, well, because I can have more of an influence on people. I think I can have things to say that I can actually influence kids, you know, adolescents, 12-year olds and, you know, that are trying to make their way into the bigger world and that's basically what mythology was, was to say - - of saying this is what we believe in; these are our rules; these are -- this is what we are as a society. And we don't do that. The last time we were doing that was westerns. And of course, this was in th '70s and the westerns sort of fizzled out in the '50s. So it was like we didn't have any national mythology. So I said, I'm going to try this and see if it works. And I'm just doing it, you know. And it would be fun because, you know, I like spaceships and I like adventure and I like fun. I like all this stuff. So I'll do it. But I figured that would be the last -- I'll do it, I'll have done my thing. Then I got in trouble because the script got out too long and then I had three scripts instead of one script and then I had to try to get them all finished and you know, I got hooked into this tar baby and I couldn't get out. And it was a while before I finally realized that, no matter what happens, I'm never going to get out. I'm always going to be George "Star Wars" Lucas, no matter how hard I try to be something else.
Charlie Rose:
Just think about the career. At -- whenever you decide that there are no more movies to be made by George Lucas and you look back at a body of work, are you going to say "Star Wars" was my crowning achievement cinematically?
George Lucas:
Cinematically, I would say probably yes.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, OK. In what way is it not your crowning achievement?
George Lucas:
I don't know. Again, it's hard to -- you know, I have a pretty low opinion of my movies, so, to me, I've always said, well, these didn't really turn out the way I'd hoped they would and I can see all the flaws and I can see all the stuff. I mean, "American Graffiti" is the most fun movie I made in terms of what I created. The most fun movie to work on was "Indiana Jones" because I didn't have to direct it.
Charlie Rose:
You had Steven.
George Lucas:
Yes, I had the best director in the world. It turned out better -- that was the one where everything went right, which happens very rarely in real life, you know.
But it just gets better and better and better and
you just can't believe how wonderful it turns out.
The other ones you suffer through and you think they're terrible and then people say, oh, they're great.
But it's hard to get that they're actually terrible, because I can see all the Scotch tape and the rubber bands and everything holding it together and that was particularly true of "Star Wars" number four because it barely got made and I was so disappointed about what my vision was and what it actually turned out to be. And I complained about it a lot during -- right after the movie when -- you know, in the interview, you should see it, I was like, ah, I came out to be 35 percent of what I wanted and all this kind of stuff. But I did have a vision. But my vision was way beyond what was possible and I did the best I could and then after a lot of people said, well, this is the greatest movie of all time, you have to -- ah, I said, well, OK, maybe it's pretty good. And we'll live with that. And then part of it then was to continue the story to -- was just a thing to finish the story.
And then after that, I worked on the technology and I said, well, gee, now I can tell the backstory because the backstory seems to have gotten lost.
And when it was one movie, it was much easier to see the backstory of Darth Vader.
Charlie Rose:
Didn't you intend to, in the beginning create, really three movies when you started and then you decided only to take one part of that life story?
George Lucas:
Yes, I took the first act.
Charlie Rose:
Exactly. There were three acts and you took the first.
George Lucas:
Yes. But then the first act didn't really work so I said, OK, what I'm going to have to do is take the ending of the third film and put it on the first film.
You know, I --
And then after that, I worked on the technology and I said, well, gee, now I can tell the backstory because the backstory seems to have gotten lost.
And when it was one movie, it was much easier to see the backstory of Darth Vader.
Charlie Rose:
Didn't you intend to, in the beginning create, really three movies when you started and then you decided only to take one part of that life story?
George Lucas:
Yes, I took the first act.
Charlie Rose:
Exactly. There were three acts and you took the first.
George Lucas:
Yes. But then the first act didn't really work so I said, OK, what I'm going to have to do is take the ending of the third film and put it on the first film.
You know, I --
which you do.
You have got a bunch of stuff
You have got a bunch of stuff
sitting on your desk as you're creating.
It's, well, let me take that, stick that in here,
make it -- so I wasn't worried that much about the sequels when I was actually making because I have to make this the best film because I want this one to succeed and work.
So then when I moved on to the other ones, I said, well, gee, you know,
So then when I moved on to the other ones, I said, well, gee, you know,
Ben Kenobi is now dead.
I killed him.
Or that was a -- unfortunate.
Or that was a -- unfortunate.
Well, how am I going to fix that?
And what do I do about the fact that I already blew the Death Star up?
And what do I do about the fact that I already blew the Death Star up?
And that's what the ending is.
And so I went through until the story stretches itself and moved around. It is a creative process where you're doing things and you maneuver through your imagination. But part of it was simply when I got down to some of the other movies I was able to create an environment and a world that wasn't possible when I started the first one. So, to me, a lot of the things were just technical or, you know, in the end, getting Yoda to do a sword fight, which I had always wanted to do but I could never do it because he was a Muppet.
Charlie Rose:
You said famously Flash Gordon was the inspiration and The Bible.
George Lucas:
Well, it wasn't the Bible by a long shot. It was the inspiration. But at the same time, with Flash Gordon, it was a matter -- I knew I wanted to make a movie based on those serials but I didn't -- I wasn't going to be -- it wasn't going to be Flash Gordon.
So I did try to get the rights of Flash Gordon -- couldn't but that was good because if I had, it would have set me off in a funny --
Charlie Rose:
OK.
George Lucas:
Because I realized after I didn't get it, I said, well, I really don't want Flash Gordon. I don't want to do any -- I want a space opera that's like Flash Gordon. But if I were making that movie, I would probably take Flash Gordon out of it and take all that stuff, Mongo and all that stuff, I don't want to do that stuff because what I really wanted to do was more on the lines of "Star Wars" and less on the lines of Flash Gordon. There is a similarity between the two but there is definitely a difference in perspective about how they're doing it. So that sent me in the right direction of having to think up something completely new but inspired by -- but, of course, inspired by westerns. You know, people go through and say these are all the inspirations that were -- influenced "Star Wars" and they are. Just like whether you're a writer, no matter what, you're a painter, whether you're a politician, in theory, you have steeped yourself in the genre you're working in. And you know all the various kinds of things and you can pull the best parts of what you, you know, of what you learned in theory. It works everywhere except it seems in politics because they're doomed to repeat themselves every few years because they do not listen to history.
Charlie Rose:
Where did the idea of Thw Force come from?
George Lucas:
The whole thing in "Star Wars" was to take, again, ideas, psychological ideas from social issues, political issues, spiritual issues and condense them down into an easy-to-tell story of those stories.
And so I went through until the story stretches itself and moved around. It is a creative process where you're doing things and you maneuver through your imagination. But part of it was simply when I got down to some of the other movies I was able to create an environment and a world that wasn't possible when I started the first one. So, to me, a lot of the things were just technical or, you know, in the end, getting Yoda to do a sword fight, which I had always wanted to do but I could never do it because he was a Muppet.
Charlie Rose:
You said famously Flash Gordon was the inspiration and The Bible.
George Lucas:
Well, it wasn't the Bible by a long shot. It was the inspiration. But at the same time, with Flash Gordon, it was a matter -- I knew I wanted to make a movie based on those serials but I didn't -- I wasn't going to be -- it wasn't going to be Flash Gordon.
So I did try to get the rights of Flash Gordon -- couldn't but that was good because if I had, it would have set me off in a funny --
Charlie Rose:
OK.
George Lucas:
Because I realized after I didn't get it, I said, well, I really don't want Flash Gordon. I don't want to do any -- I want a space opera that's like Flash Gordon. But if I were making that movie, I would probably take Flash Gordon out of it and take all that stuff, Mongo and all that stuff, I don't want to do that stuff because what I really wanted to do was more on the lines of "Star Wars" and less on the lines of Flash Gordon. There is a similarity between the two but there is definitely a difference in perspective about how they're doing it. So that sent me in the right direction of having to think up something completely new but inspired by -- but, of course, inspired by westerns. You know, people go through and say these are all the inspirations that were -- influenced "Star Wars" and they are. Just like whether you're a writer, no matter what, you're a painter, whether you're a politician, in theory, you have steeped yourself in the genre you're working in. And you know all the various kinds of things and you can pull the best parts of what you, you know, of what you learned in theory. It works everywhere except it seems in politics because they're doomed to repeat themselves every few years because they do not listen to history.
Charlie Rose:
Where did the idea of Thw Force come from?
George Lucas:
The whole thing in "Star Wars" was to take, again, ideas, psychological ideas from social issues, political issues, spiritual issues and condense them down into an easy-to-tell story of those stories.
The force basically came from, you know, distilling all of the religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, go all around the world, all through time, finding the similarities and then creating an easy-to-deal-with metaphor for what religion is. And the point was -- is that the -- in the very beginning when you have people worshiping rocks and deer, they called it life force, they called it the force. That's what it was.
And, so, where did the name come from?
It came from basically life force
of what the more primitive religions believed in. And then you go through all the other religions and they have the same thing. It's all the same -- you know, whether you believe in God, don't believe in God; believe in religion, don't believe in religion; the issue is that you either don't believe there is anything else out there, which is a little -- I think would be hard to live with at the same time. I mean, I believe something's out there, I just don't know what it is. I have no idea or would I dare to guess. But I do know religions aren't based on it. There are human psychological needs that have been put together mostly to create the society.
Charlie Rose:
But you believe something's out there?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
So here's what's interesting to me about "Star Wars" too. To hear you talk about it, this was a very personal film.
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
Very.
George Lucas:
All my films are personal because I didn't --
Charlie Rose:
But you believe something's out there?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
So here's what's interesting to me about "Star Wars" too. To hear you talk about it, this was a very personal film.
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
Very.
George Lucas:
All my films are personal because I didn't --
I thought them up. I did them and you could say, well, but "Star Wars" was just a kiddies movie.
I said, you know, the idea of making it for kids,
the idea that it was a fun kiddie movie, all that stuff was very important to me.
I liked that sort of thing and I like "Star Wars" and I did it not because I thought
I liked that sort of thing and I like "Star Wars" and I did it not because I thought
it was going to make any money
because, in the end, we finished.
We showed it to the board of directors of Fox.
They hated it. And now I'm the head of the studio and he fought for me and got through there. But nobody thought it was going to be a hit, especially me.
Charlie Rose:
OK. So personal film becomes, among other things, a blockbuster.
George Lucas:
And, again, it was the second because "American Graffiti" was a very personal film.
Charlie Rose:
And also "Star Wars" became a cultural mainstay, as we've said. And here's what Steven said. He said, "It is the moment in which the entire industry changed." "Star Wars" is the moment when the industry changed.
George Lucas:
Well, it changed for the good and for the bad.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
George Lucas:
And, you know, it's -- again, when you invent things -- well, you don't invent things. I don't know. But when you bring new things into a society, you can either -- it's like the balance of the force. You can either use it for good or you can use it for evil.
They hated it. And now I'm the head of the studio and he fought for me and got through there. But nobody thought it was going to be a hit, especially me.
Charlie Rose:
OK. So personal film becomes, among other things, a blockbuster.
George Lucas:
And, again, it was the second because "American Graffiti" was a very personal film.
Charlie Rose:
And also "Star Wars" became a cultural mainstay, as we've said. And here's what Steven said. He said, "It is the moment in which the entire industry changed." "Star Wars" is the moment when the industry changed.
George Lucas:
Well, it changed for the good and for the bad.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
George Lucas:
And, you know, it's -- again, when you invent things -- well, you don't invent things. I don't know. But when you bring new things into a society, you can either -- it's like the balance of the force. You can either use it for good or you can use it for evil.
And what happens when there is something new,
people have a tendency
to overdo it. They abuse it.
Now, there were two things that got abused
with "Star Wars" and are still being abused.
One, when "Star Wars" came out, everybody said, oh, it's a silly movie, it's just a bunch of space battles and stuff, it's not real, there is nothing behind it. I said, well, there is stuff behind it, it's not just a space battle. There is more to it than that. It's much, much more complicated than that. But nobody would listen. So they just, well, it's simple and we like the spaceships, we like the stuff. So they said fine. So the spaceships and that part of the science fantasy, whatever, got terribly abused. And of course, everybody went out and made spaceship movies and they were all horrible and they all lost tons of money. And you say, well, there is more to it than that. You can't just go out and do spaceships. And the other part, was at -- was the -- which is the technology, which is, oh, we'll just take this new technology; it's great, you know, especially when it came down later to digital technology, where you can really do anything, and then people just abused it all over the place, which they did with color, they did with sound. Whenever there is a new tool, everybody goes crazy and they forget the fact that there is actually a story and that's the point. You're telling the story, using tools. You're not using tools to a story. You understand that.
Charlie Rose:
I do.
George Lucas:
The point was the other thing that got abused, naturally in a capitalist society, especially in an American point of view, which is the studios and everything said, well, wow, we can make a lot of money, this is a license to kill. And they did it. They just simply -- and of course, the only way you can really do that is not take chances, only do something that's proven. Well, let's not do any -- you got to remember, "Star Wars" came from nowhere. "American Graffiti" came from nowhere. There was nothing like it. Now if you do anything that's not a sequel or not a TV series, or doesn't look like one, they won't do it. They say we want something that we know --
Charlie Rose:
So that's the down side of "Star Wars."
George Lucas:
That's the down side of "Star Wars" and it really shows an enormous lack of imagination and fear of creativity on the part of an industry. I mean, corporations are not known for -- maybe not Silicon Valley, but the old institutions are not known for being -- they're knowing for being risk averse. And movies are not risk averse. Every single movie is a risk, a big risk, like -- it's like the movie business is exactly like professional gambling, except you hire the gambler.
You use some crazy kid with long hair who's, like, I don't get this guy at all, you give him $100 million and you say go to the tables and come back with $500 million. That is a risk. Now the studios have been going to think of it that way. They say, well, maybe if we told him that he couldn't bet on red, maybe if we told him because we did market research and we've realized that red wasn't -- so they tried minimize their risk.
But once you -- and, of course, you're hiring the kid to be -- take risks, to be creative, to do things that never have been done before, never been tested.
You have no idea whether they're going to work or not.
That's completely the antithesis of what a big, modern corporation is.
They want to test things 360 ways.
Charlie Rose:
So Hollywood is not like a big American corporation because it will just throw money away behind somebody and have him go or her go and figure out --
George Lucas:
But they don't know how to do that because they're basically corporate types. They think -- some of the worst things happens when they think they know how to do it, then they start making decisions that ensure it's not going to work.
Charlie Rose:
But you're George Lucas and you were
Charlie Rose:
I do.
George Lucas:
The point was the other thing that got abused, naturally in a capitalist society, especially in an American point of view, which is the studios and everything said, well, wow, we can make a lot of money, this is a license to kill. And they did it. They just simply -- and of course, the only way you can really do that is not take chances, only do something that's proven. Well, let's not do any -- you got to remember, "Star Wars" came from nowhere. "American Graffiti" came from nowhere. There was nothing like it. Now if you do anything that's not a sequel or not a TV series, or doesn't look like one, they won't do it. They say we want something that we know --
Charlie Rose:
So that's the down side of "Star Wars."
George Lucas:
That's the down side of "Star Wars" and it really shows an enormous lack of imagination and fear of creativity on the part of an industry. I mean, corporations are not known for -- maybe not Silicon Valley, but the old institutions are not known for being -- they're knowing for being risk averse. And movies are not risk averse. Every single movie is a risk, a big risk, like -- it's like the movie business is exactly like professional gambling, except you hire the gambler.
 |
| David Fincher's Alien^3 |
You use some crazy kid with long hair who's, like, I don't get this guy at all, you give him $100 million and you say go to the tables and come back with $500 million. That is a risk. Now the studios have been going to think of it that way. They say, well, maybe if we told him that he couldn't bet on red, maybe if we told him because we did market research and we've realized that red wasn't -- so they tried minimize their risk.
 |
| David Fincher, 1992 |
But once you -- and, of course, you're hiring the kid to be -- take risks, to be creative, to do things that never have been done before, never been tested.
You have no idea whether they're going to work or not.
That's completely the antithesis of what a big, modern corporation is.
They want to test things 360 ways.
Charlie Rose:
So Hollywood is not like a big American corporation because it will just throw money away behind somebody and have him go or her go and figure out --
George Lucas:
But they don't know how to do that because they're basically corporate types. They think -- some of the worst things happens when they think they know how to do it, then they start making decisions that ensure it's not going to work.
Charlie Rose:
But you're George Lucas and you were
ahead of your time with "American Graffiti."
You were ahead of your time with Star Wars.
Have you been ahead of your time since then?
George Lucas:
Well, you know,
George Lucas:
Well, you know,
I haven't directed a movie
since then.
Charlie Rose:
I know that.
George Lucas:
Producing? I don't know. I was sort of ahead of my time with "Red Tails," an all- black film.
Charlie Rose:
But you're the only person who could have gotten that made.
George Lucas:
Well, I paid for it myself. They wouldn't distribute it, they wouldn't make it, they wouldn't advertise it.
Charlie Rose:
Because of racism or because of what?
George Lucas:
They just said the market research says nobody will go to that movie.
Charlie Rose:
There you go.
George Lucas:
And in Europe, nobody will go see it --
Charlie Rose:
Market research said nobody would go to "Star Wars." Market research may have said no one --
George Lucas:
Well, not -- but they -- but this one was --
Charlie Rose:
OK.
George Lucas:
-- we know -- there is a certain now -- over time, a lot of these issues that were just becoming -- they were dimly aware of them -- have become institutionalized. Now they know that movie will do well in France, this movie will do well in Denmark, this movie you can't do in Asia.
And they got their market, say, well, how much of share they get and do their little analysis and then they say, well, we'll not make the movie.
It has nothing to do with what I do, which is making a movie, something that people can enjoy. It has nothing to do with that.
I made money in spite of myself
and I think I made money because I didn't care.
I didn't care whether it was a hit or not a hit,
I wanted to make this movie as a movie
and that's the thing that they won't do
and they can't do it, it's not in
their constitution to do that.
You know, I have a fiduciary duty to come up with the thing. I got a 10 percent a year, my stockholders, that's why I would never go public.
And that's why I said I'm not going to be beholden to anybody.
And that's why even now, with the company, when I sold, one of the reasons I sold it was I was starting to make movies that were more personal and were obviously losing a lot of money.
And I said I really can't do this much more because the company will be dragged down and I had 2,000 employees.
So I had people to think about. So I said the best way to handle this is to sell it and then take the money, put it in a bank account -- I call it my yacht because a lot of my friends have yachts.
I said I'm not going to buy a yacht but I will take the money that I would use to have a yacht and I'll put it in bank account.
And I will use that to make movies that I know are experimental, that I have no way of knowing whether they will work or not. But I want to see if they work. And that means I don't have to show them to an audience, I don't have to have people --
Charlie Rose:
So when are we going to see that move?
George Lucas:
You're not. You might -- but you're in a world now, where everything is -- well, first of all, those movies, you know, they don't make money.
And you can't -- like "Red Tails," perfect example. Not only does it not make money, you can't get anybody to distribute it. You can't get anybody to put any advertising money behind it. You can't -- so it loses money no matter how you do. So why in the world go through all that and get bad reviews, get all the crazy people yelling and screaming? Why not just make the movie for yourself and your friends?
Charlie Rose:
So that's where you are in your life today?
George Lucas:
Yes, I'm doing what I wanted to do back when I started but I'm going to learn things. And the things I learn, possibly, I will pass on to other friends of mine and other people, who are directors, to say, you know, I didn't know you could do that. Because that's what directors do. They learn from what all their peers are doing. I'm doing this and I'm doing -- you sort of see how they manipulate film, the visual image, moving image, and doing things that have never been done before. And so that's what I want to do because in the movie business you cannot take a risk, you cannot do something that doesn't work. You don't get a second chance. I've taken second chances but I just take it to polish them. But at the same time, you can't -- there is no experimenting like at -- there is no experimenting in the movies. What you do is every day, on the set, what you're doing has to be right. If it's not right and you make the mistake enough, the film will fail. If the film fails, then the people lose their money and you usually don't get another job.
Charlie Rose:
But are you telling me -- and is this where you -- what you believe today that, in your life's experience, you know how to make a popular movie but that's just not what you want to do at this stage in your life?
George Lucas:
Yes. Why would i?
Charlie Rose:
You don't need the money.
George Lucas:
I don't need the money.
My interests have shifted to more mature things.
I mean, I did the kids' thing. I did it.
To me, it's six films and --
Charlie Rose:
Why do you say the kids thing?
George Lucas:
Well, it is a kids film.
Adults like it. It's for everybody, obviously.
But the kinds of movies that I'm going to make now are much more demanding of an audience and most of the audience won't have anything to do with it and it's on subject matter that most people don't want to see movies about. So -- but I do. And you know, it's -- I've made movies for me that I wanted to see but I knew what they were. You know, I said, OK, this is this movie, this is this movie, this is this movie. And in producing films where I was able to get other people to put their money in, studios -- I wouldn't take it from real people; I'd only take it from corporations -- so, you know, it's a little bit of a Robin Hood thing.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, I know. Let me just talk about the upcoming
Star Wars: The Force Awakens."
How do you feel about it?
George Lucas:
Well, it's -- you know, I made the decision to sell the company, the "Star Wars." I made that decision because I looked at the future, I looked at the thought that I was going to have a baby, I looked at the fact that was married and I looked at the fact that I wanted to build a museum and I looked at the fact that I wanted to make experimental films. So my life was going on a different track. I noticed the last few movies that I'd made were costing the company a lot of money and I didn't think that was fair to the people that worked there or the company. And so I had made a decision to move ahead on the next "Star Wars" series and we were starting to do that.
Charlie Rose:
So you were starting to make the next "Star Wars"?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
You as director, filmmaker.
George Lucas:
So -- and we were working with a writer;
George Lucas:
Well, it's -- you know, I made the decision to sell the company, the "Star Wars." I made that decision because I looked at the future, I looked at the thought that I was going to have a baby, I looked at the fact that was married and I looked at the fact that I wanted to build a museum and I looked at the fact that I wanted to make experimental films. So my life was going on a different track. I noticed the last few movies that I'd made were costing the company a lot of money and I didn't think that was fair to the people that worked there or the company. And so I had made a decision to move ahead on the next "Star Wars" series and we were starting to do that.
Charlie Rose:
So you were starting to make the next "Star Wars"?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
You as director, filmmaker.
George Lucas:
So -- and we were working with a writer;
it wasn't quite working out. But I was also, you know, I was also stepping away a little bit to -- and turning things over to Kathy Kennedy.
And so what happened was
And so what happened was
Disney said, gee -- or Bob Iger said,
gee, if you really sell your company,
if you're thinking about selling it,
because we were talking about retirement
and what are you going to do
after all this kind of stuff.
And he said,
“Well, if you really want to sell it,
you know, we're very interested.”
So that started that ball rolling.
And I knew from -- you know, and I had the story treatments or outlines and we were working on scripts,
And I knew from -- you know, and I had the story treatments or outlines and we were working on scripts,
so I sold it.
But I knew when I sold it, I said,
“I've tried to make movies where
But I knew when I sold it, I said,
“I've tried to make movies where
I step away to sort of "Empire"
and Return of the Jedi.
And after about a couple of weeks
And after about a couple of weeks
I knew I couldn't do that.”
I had to stand over the shoulder
of the director, help him,
whisper in his ear constantly,
no, do this, do that, do that --
and be there to help guide it.
And it was much harder than
if I'd just directed it myself.
Charlie Rose:
J.J. Abrams.
George Lucas:
J.J. Abrams. He's a good director and he's good friends and all this sort of thing but he's also a top director, company, his own company and all this other stuff.
And Disney, who was a little nervous -- you know, there's -- one of the issues was the first three movies had all kinds of issues.
They looked at the stories and they said, we want to make something for the fans.
So I said, all I want to do is tell a story of what happened.
You know, it started here and it went there and it's all about generations and it's about, you know, the issues of fathers and sons and grandfathers.
And it's a family soap opera, ultimately.
Charlie Rose:
J.J. Abrams.
George Lucas:
J.J. Abrams. He's a good director and he's good friends and all this sort of thing but he's also a top director, company, his own company and all this other stuff.
And Disney, who was a little nervous -- you know, there's -- one of the issues was the first three movies had all kinds of issues.
They looked at the stories and they said, we want to make something for the fans.
So I said, all I want to do is tell a story of what happened.
You know, it started here and it went there and it's all about generations and it's about, you know, the issues of fathers and sons and grandfathers.
And it's a family soap opera, ultimately.
I mean, we call it a space opera.
But people don't realize it's actually a soap opera and it's all about family problems and -- in fact, it's not about spaceships.
So they decided they didn't want to use those stories.
They said they were going to do their own thing. And so I decided, fine. But basically, I'm not going to try to -- they weren't that keen to have me involved anyway. But at the same time, I said, I'm not going to -- if I get in there, I'm just going to cause trouble because they're not going to do what I want them to do.
So -- and I don't want the control to do that anymore and all I would do is muck everything up.
So I said, OK.
I will go my way and I'll let them go their way and it really does come down to a simple rule of life which is, when you break up with somebody, the first rule is no phone calls.
The second rule, you don't go over to their house and drive by to see what they're doing.
The third one is you don't show up at their coffee shop or other things.
You just say, no, go on, history; I'm moving forward, because every time you do -- and we all learn this from experience - every time you do something like that you're opening the wound again and it just makes it harder for you.
You have to put it behind you and it's a very, very, very hard thing to do.
But you have to just cut it off and say, OK, end of ball game, I got to move on. And everything in your body says, don't, you can't. And these are my kids.
Charlie Rose:
All those "Star Wars" films.
George Lucas:
All those "Star Wars" films.
Charlie Rose:
They were your kids.
George Lucas:
Well, they are my -- you know, I loved them, I created them. I'm very intimately involved in them and obviously to --
 |
| "Dangerous Amusements--The Brilliant Entrance to Hell Itself" -- illustration depicting methods used to seduce young women into the "white slavery" of prostitution. Caption reads: "Young girls who have danced at home a little are attracted by the blazing lights, gaiety and apparent happiness of the 'dance halls,' which in many instances lead to their downfall." |
Charlie Rose:
And you sold them?
George Lucas:
I sold them to the white slavers that take these things and --
Charlie Rose:
OK, but having said all that and having talked to you for the last -- and known you for a while and admired you, I mean, it must hurt you. It's your family. It's the last story. It's your story. It's you.
George Lucas:
But I knew there are three more stories and I knew that was going to probably take -- you know, to do it right would take about 10 years. And I said, I'm 70. I don't know whether I'll be here when I'm 80. You know, every 10 years, the odds get less. And so I said -- and I'm not ready to do it because I wanted to do these other things. So I have to make the decision on my own that it's time for me to move on. So it wasn't like they were taken away from me or they were -- and they felt they knew -- you know, they wanted to do a retro movie. I don't like that. I like -- every movie I work very hard to make them different, to make them completely different with different planets, with different spaceships, with different -- you know, to make it new.
Charlie Rose:
So are you at peace with this?
George Lucas:
Yes.
Charlie Rose:
As much as you can be?
George Lucas:
Yes. No I was -- I said, look, I'm fine. Then you get to the thing, which is another thing that did I'd been through -- fortunately, I'm old enough to have been through all this stuff before -- and that was when I said, I had to do it then. And then you do end up with this thing which is, you know, you've got to live with it and people are going to talk about it and all that kind of stuff. It's like talking about your divorce or something, it's just it's awkward but it's not painful.
Charlie Rose:
Do you have within you something that's a series of small personal films, you've said, that's what you want to do? No more great "Star Wars" kind of adventure for George Lucas? That's over?
George Lucas:
Yes. These are little, tiny movies that are experimental.
They aren't using the same structure.
I'm going back to where "American Graffiti" was, where -- or "THX," where I completely changed the way you tell a story and using cinema.
It's back -- I've produced a few films that were like this.
But they weren't like what I would do.
But they were using the visual style rather than the book.
Charlie Rose:
Here's what's exciting, George, what's exciting is that all of the stuff that's within you, that made all of this, whether it's "THX" or "American Graffiti" or "Star Wars" or all that you contributed to "Indiana Jones, it's all within you. It's who you are and you can apply that in any way because that, in the end, is what you brought. It is your ideas and your insight, is what you brought to film.
George Lucas:
And at the same time, I have been fascinated with the medium and I have been fascinated with the true nature of the medium, which is very different. It's been used more as a recording medium than as an art form unto itself, and that's where the kind of movies that I made that are sort of -- they call them tone poems.
But in the beginning, like in Russia, this was a whole movement of how you tell visual stories basically without dialogue, without all the things that you use to tell a story and you just use the film itself.
It's kind of esoteric. I'm going to try to take it -- it hasn't come much further in 100 years.
I'm going to try to take it into something that is more emotionally powerful than some of the --
most of the stuff we've done up to this point.
Charlie Rose:
Thank you for doing this.
George Lucas:
Thank you.
Charlie Rose:
Thank you for doing this.
George Lucas:
Thank you.
