So I accepted that and let him go and continued our search.
But I regretted it, 'cause this guy looked like an auto mechanic.
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the---let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to 'look up there before you heard the shots?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?
Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around
Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?
Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?
Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait---let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after I o'clock. I don't remember; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--- what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?
Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.
He had on a sports shirt and pants - but he had dirty fingernails."
Dallas Police Patrolman, Joe Smith
First Law-Man behind the picket fence,
Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Tx.
22/11/63 (1)
(1) Smith did not testify at the Clay Shaw trial (although he was deposed for the Warren Commission);
the statements attributed to him in JFK are paraphrased from remarks he made to author Anthony Summers in 1978.
(Anthony Summers, Conspiracy [New York: Paragon House, 1989], p. 50.)
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the---let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to 'look up there before you heard the shots?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?
Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around
Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?
Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?
Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait---let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after I o'clock. I don't remember; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--- what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?
Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.
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