"Shall we close up with the Elliott page
tweet? I think that we've talked about it
all through...."
Yeah we have and and I think
that I don't know I don't know if
there's more to really add....
"Well so so
:
here's it with me I mean choose your
:
words carefully yeah choose your words
:
carefully criminal physician has a bunch
:
of connotations if you're is it a
:
criminal physician if somebody gets
:
their face tattooed times if they
:
get implants all over their body there's
:
a million things that well that's a good
:
deal that's a good question and that
:
that's a whole separate discussion right
:
because you have a not really because
:
you're picking one out and you're not
:
looking at the others just like you did
:
with Justice Jackson well you can't look
:
at all them at the same time but you
:
look at one set particularly mostly
:
recently yeah and it's of a direction I
:
know I know that but it's also the case
that it's in that set is causing a
tremendous amount of trouble the first
:
Look, Rick --
I knew when the pronoun bill came out,
I knew that for every trans kid that
was hypothetically saved, we would
Doom a hundred confused adolescent
females, because it that had already
happened on the anorexia front --
it was like, if you knew the literature,
it was obvious what was going to happen --
And so this this is there is an element of the
argument that's like "Well, where do
adults have The Right to draw the line
with regards to their own
surgical transformation?"
Perfectly reasonable thing to debate,
"To what degree can Physicians
be complicit in this?" because then
is a there is a Hippocratic Oath
problem there? Just because someone wants
to have horns implanted in their head,
which people have had done,
doesn't mean The Physician
has a moral right to do that
and I know that those lines have to
be drawn, and the the issue with regard
to surgical enhancements say sexual
"Surgical Enhancement is also another
borderline." but this is...
There is a line here, it's like "We're enticing
Young People with this fluidity issue --
We're enticing Young People to sterilize and
mutilate themselves and not just a few,
a lot and and the incidence has skyrocketed
to the point where yesterday,
or the day before, The UK closed its
primary gender transformation clinic -- it's like,
so this is not just a difference in degree.
With porn It's Kind
Porn is decimating....
Yeah that's right, right but
I don't think it's reasonable to say
that I shouldn't have gone after the
trans-minor problem because
I didn't simultaneously go after
the porn problem.
but I don't go after a trans minor
:
problem in a way that made any sense
:
because you don't know okay well I'm
:
sorry let's say like Elliott page
:
is not a rapid onset gender dysphoria
:
convert who spent too long at
:
Marlborough School in La maybe Hmm this
:
may be okay I don't believe so we have
:
we can I think you could make a case
:
that
:
he isn't
:
but
:
he did it when when this was not trendy
:
he did it when Ellen Page walked away
:
from a lucrative career....
But people can be unbelievably confused
for a very long period of time and
the mere fact that it's been a long time
that they've been confused doesn't mean
that they've thought it through
when they make their decision
and I would say "It hasn't been."
Okay, wouldn't have been public, that's
the thing -- it's like okay, "Why everything
you think through wrong, is public."
"And we're having a whole conversation about
the fact that you make mistakes, right?"
But, so, here's enticing adolescent girls
to sterilize themselves
Okay but are you enticing when you make
that comment about a swimsuit model,
Young Men who worship you and think
that you're saint-like to act
like pigs to women?
No, but I might be encouraging them
:
to not respect the things I'm saying
:
because I'm being in cautious and I
:
would say even if the so make sure
:
with Elliott page
:
okay yeah but the the it's the
:
consequences yeah it's like look you had
:
you had your psychological problems
:
whatever they might be I'm not going to
:
argue about what they are
:
um you rectified them in a very very
:
dramatic way and perhaps that was your
:
right and perhaps it was the right of
:
the surgeons although I'm not convinced
:
of either of those things by the way it
:
may be the case but I'm not convinced of
:
it but then
:
you made it not only public but
:
triumphantly public I finally found my
:
true self and I'm a model for emulation
:
it's like I don't think so
:
I don't think so but if he did do you
:
believe anyone is trans
:
I wouldn't like with all the variations
:
in the world including I know the answer
:
that question
:
someone comes to me and asks me that
:
question because people have asked me
:
those questions and the answer is we
:
need to talk about it for hours
:
that's the answer okay so and so okay
:
because who knows what someone really is
:
I mean none of us know who we really are
:
so if do I believe that that um that men
:
can be born in women's bodies
:
I certainly don't believe that statement
:
is this is in any way an adequate
:
representation of either the problem set
:
or the solution here's an example
:
do you believe that anorexic women who
:
think they're too thin are too thin
:
because they sure think they are and I
:
really I do not see how that's not
:
analogous
:
and you know we wouldn't have so for me
:
this is where it taxes the personal yeah
:
where I have a friend a family member
:
who
:
lesbian
:
working class Mexican really funny
:
really irreverent yeah
:
um
:
went through therapy master's degree two
:
years of therapy yeah calmly decide a
:
huge fan of yours yeah
:
listens to you every night went through
:
transition only questions that he came
:
to me with were how how do I be a better
:
man because I always say it's hard
:
enough to be one gender to do one gender
:
well half of us aren't doing it right
:
yeah it's hard enough to be gay and then
:
if you want to switch gender and to me
:
in this in this individual and I I don't
:
want to get into stats and numbers
:
because it's it's a different argument
:
and I'm and I probably can't keep up
:
yeah this person is the fullest
:
embodiment of who he is meant to be and
:
it's somebody who I know intimately
:
maybe well as much as you could judge
:
any as much as you are for me in my eyes
:
so whatever my opinion estimation is
:
worth well okay that'll switch things
:
into a slightly different so argument
:
I'm willing to accept that because if
:
that's an acceptance then again wait a
:
sec there's a there's contingency okay
:
if in finding your true identity you
:
violate a cultural norm that's so
:
profound that you destabilize the old
:
the entire country the entire culture
:
then maybe you don't have the right to
:
do that even if it actualizes yourself
:
um but yeah I don't know right it is the
:
manner of Twitter right like how many
:
people who are not activists are you
:
engaged with regularly with their
:
opinions
:
in the public Marketplace of ideas like
:
not a lot right there's a bit they
:
haven't had a full negotiation with the
:
American public yet right there's no RV
:
milk there's no Martin Luther King like
:
it's it's a conversation that hasn't
:
happened well I don't even know and he
:
said that that branch of the the lgbtq
:
plus Community should be conceptualized
:
in that manner that's the thing that
:
liberals do immediately this is another
:
civil rights battle it's like yeah oh no
:
maybe not but maybe not but what I'm
:
saying is is well maybe but maybe not
:
gets proven if somebody can come forth
:
who appropriately negotiates with the
:
culture Acceptance in a manner that is
:
moral and by moral well it is it doesn't
:
mean so John Lewis another problem
:
that's emerged out of this that's very
:
very complicated it's like okay so now
:
the trans Community is brought into the
:
realm of normativity in some sense let's
:
say and so now and so here's where the
:
wheel the wheel hits the the road so now
:
you're a year old and you're you're
:
wondering about your gender identity and
:
your sexuality or maybe you're and
:
you're confused because maybe you're a
:
pretty feminine boy and maybe you're
:
tilted biologically towards being
:
homosexual and now the conversation is
:
well maybe you should be castrated
:
and the answer that question is
:
yeah maybe that'll happen yeah and then
:
there's another question that comes up
:
is like
:
so is it so clear that the gay community
:
is better off under the Aegis of the
:
trans umbrella than they were under the
:
ages of the Monas uh the heterosexual
:
monogamists and the answer to that seems
:
to me to be not only are they not better
:
off they're way way worse wait there's
:
one more thing there's one more thing
:
the the inclusion violates the ideal and
:
the norm and you think well that's
:
necessary because then it includes but
:
one of the consequences might be that if
:
you extend the ideal so that it's too
:
inclusive you blow the ideal so that
:
it's even worse for those yeah yeah and
:
I really do think that's happening I
:
know that this battle I do too I do too
:
and I agree with everything that you've
:
said about the complexities and the
:
thing that is the hardest is the removal
:
of counsel
:
teachers Physicians everybody
:
psychologists who is no longer no longer
:
allowed to have these conversations
:
sometimes say well how do I know they're
:
not allowed to have these conversations
:
and the answer is because I have
:
lawsuits against me that's right for
:
having these conversations however badly
:
I'm having them so so now we are
:
strategically transform children that we
:
are not allowed to talk to yes and I
:
think that Elliot page
:
aided and abetted that okay and and
:
pridefully so there's two conversations
:
that we're having and it's important to
:
break it down so one of them is in me
:
saying do you think anyone's trans
:
there's not a clear answer you can get
:
for that I have a different opinion that
:
I believe that there are people that
:
that is their fullest most embodied self
:
that's my opinion you don't need to
:
share it
:
well I would just say I don't know
:
because I have to talk to them great so
:
then so talk to them and I mean people
:
have all sorts of weird identities you
:
know so a God only knows but so part of
:
it for me and then there's the whole
:
issue of how it's moving through the
:
culture which I do not want to defend
:
because I don't agree with that so I
:
don't want to get pulled into a defense
:
from me saying this of you saying well
:
that's what you liberals do all the time
:
you bring it in and you normalize it and
:
you pull it and then you decimate what
:
the norm is I'm saying well there's all
:
I'm saying some advantages to to
:
bringing in the margins into the center
:
to the degree that you can manage so
:
what I'm saying is is it has that is a
:
conversation that has gone too fast
:
given Twitter in the pace of
:
conversation like if you're blowing up
:
Dave Chappelle right right and Dave
:
Chappelle is like especially for that
:
comedy performance did you listen to it
:
do you think he's anti-trans are you
:
utterly clue I would never hesitate to
:
have Dave Chappelle at my house with my
:
transgender godson at the table and
:
think it would be anything
