Survival

"I don't even really KNOW -- What You're TALKING About....!!

I mean, I KNOW, What You're Talking About -- but I don't REALLY know 

What You're Talking About...!"

Wally Shawn :

“Well, uh... do you want to know my actual response to all this? 

Do you want to hear my actual response?”

Andre :

Yes! 

Wally Shawn :

See, my actual response, I mean... 

I mean, I'm just trying to Survive, you know? 

I mean, I'm just trying to earn a Living... 

just trying to Pay My Rent and My Bills. 

I mean... Ah, I Live My Life. 

I enjoy staying home with Debby. 

I'm reading Charlton Heston's autobiography. 

And that's that. 

I mean, you know, I mean, occasionally, maybe... 

Debby and I will step outside, 

we'll go to a party or something. 

And if I can occasionally 

get my little Talent together 

and write a little play... 

well, then that's just wonderful. 

And I mean, I enjoy reading 

about other little plays people have written,

and reading the reviews of those plays 

and what people said about them... 

and what people said about 

what people said. 

And I mean, I have a list of errands and responsibilities

that I keep in a notebook. I enjoy going through the notebook... 

carrying out the responsibilities, doing the errands,

and crossing them off The List. 

And, I mean, I just don't know how anybody 

could enjoy anything more than I enjoy, 

reading Charlton Heston's autobiography,

or, you know, getting up in the morning... 

and having the cup of cold coffee 

that's been waiting for me all night,

still there for me to drink in the morning... 

and no cockroach or fly has died in it overnight. 

I mean, I'm just so thrilled when I get up... 

and I see that coffee there, 

just the way I wanted it. 

I mean, I just can't imagine.. 

How anybody could enjoy something else 

any more than that. 

I mean, obviously, if the cockroach, 

if there is a dead cockroach in it... 

well, then I just have a feeling 

of disappointment, and I'm sad. 

But I mean, I just don't think... 

I feel the need for anything more than all this. 

Whereas, you know, you seem to be saying... 

that, uh... it's inconceivable that anybody 

could be having a meaningful life today... 

and, you know, everyone is totally destroyed... 

and we all need to live in these outposts. 

But I mean, you know, I just can't believe, even for you... 

I mean, don't you find, isn't it pleasant just to get up in the morning... and there's Chiquita, there are the children.... and The Times is delivered, you can read it. I mean, maybe you'll direct a play, maybe you won't direct a play. 

But forget about the play that 

you may or may not direct. 

Why is it necessary to, why not lean back 

and just enjoy these details? 

I mean, and there'd be a delicious 

cup of coffee and a piece of coffeecake. 

I mean, why is it necessary 

to have more than this... 

or to even think about 

having more than this? 

I mean, I don't really know what you're talking about. 

I mean, I know what you're talking about... 

but I don't really know what you're talking about. 

And I mean, you know, even if 

I were to totally agree with you, you know,

and even if I were to accept the idea 

that there's just no way for anybody 

to have personal happiness now... 

well, you know, I still couldn't accept the idea... 

that the way to make life wonderful would be to just totally... 

you know, reject Western civilization... 

and fall back into some kind of belief 

in some kind of weird something. 

I mean, I don't even know 

how to begin talking about this...

 but you know, in the Middle Ages... 

before the arrival of scientific thinking as we know it today... 

well, people could believe anything. 

Anything could be True, 

The statue of the Virgin Mary

could speak or bleed or whatever it was. 

But the wonderful thing that happened

was that then in The Development 

of Science in The Western World

certain things did come slowly 

to be known and understood. 

I mean, you know... obviously, 

all ideas in Science are constantly 

being revised. 

I mean, that's The Whole Point. 

But we do at least know that 

The Universe has some shape and order... 

and that, you know, 

Trees do not turn into 

People or Goddesses... 

and there are very good 

reasons why they don't... 

and you can't just believe 

absolutely anything. 

Whereas, the things that you're talking about... 

I mean, I mean, You found the handprint in the book, 

and there were Three "André"s 

and one Antoine de Saint-Exupery. 

And to me, that is 

a coincidence. 

But, and, and then, you know, 

the people who put that book together... 

well, they had their own 

reasons for putting it together. 

But to you it was significant, 

as if that book had been written 

40 years ago, so that you would see it, 

as if it was planned 

for you, in a way. 

I mean, really, I mean... 

I mean, all right, let's say, 

if I get a fortune cookie 

in a Chinese restaurant... 

I mean, of course, 

even I have a tendency. 

I mean, you know, I mean, of course, 

I would hardly throw it out. 

I mean, I read it. I read it, and, and... 

I just instinctively sort of, you know, 

if it says something like, uh... 

"A conversation 

with a dark-haired man 

will be very important for you" 

Well, I just instinctively think, you know, 

"Who do I know who has dark hair?" 

"Did we have a conversation?" 

"What did we talk about?" 

In other words, there's something 

in me that makes me read it 

and I instinctively interpret it 

as if it were an omen 

of The Future. 

But in my conscious opinion, 

which is so fundamental to 

my whole view of life... 

I mean, I would just have to change totally 

to not have this opinion. 

In my conscious opinion, 

this is simply something... that was 

written in the cookie factory

several years ago and 

in no way refers to me. 

I mean, you know, the, 

the fact that I got it. 

I mean, the man who wrote it 

did not know anything about me. 

I mean, he could not have known 

anything about me. 

There's no way that this cookie 

could actually have to do with me. 

And the fact that I've gotten it 

is just basically a joke. 

And I mean, if I were gonna go on a trip on an airplane... and I got a fortune cookie that said "Don't go!" I mean, of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous for about one second. But in fact, I would go because, I mean... that trip is gonna be successful or unsuccessful... based on the state of the airplane and the state of the pilot. 

And the cookie is in no position to know about that. 

And I mean, you know, it's the same 

with any kind of, prophecy, 

or a sign, or an omen. 

Because if you believe in omens then 

that means that The Universe... I mean, I don't even know how to begin to describe this. That means that the future is somehow sending messages... backwards to the present. Which, which means that the future must exist in some sense already... in order to be able to send these messages. And it also means that things in the universe are there for a purpose... to give us messages. Whereas I think that things in the universe are just there. I mean, they don't mean anything. I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out of the tree and splashes on the paving stones... it's just because that turtle was clumsy by accident. And, and to decide whether to send my ships off to war on the basis of that... seems a big mistake to me. Well, what information would you send your ships to war on? Because if it's all meaningless... what's the difference whether you accept the fortune cookie... or the statistics of the Ford Foundation? It doesn't seem to matter. Well, the meaningless fact of the fortune cookie or the turtles egg... can't possibly have any relevance to the subject you're analyzing. Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are collected and interpreted... in a scientific way may quite possibly be relevant. Because the wonderful thing about scientific theories about things... is that they're based on experiments that can be repeated. 

Well, it's True, Wally. 

I mean, you know, 

following omens and so on... 

İs probably just a way of letting ourselves off the hook so that 

we don't have to take individual responsibility for our own actions. 

But I mean, giving yourself over to The Unconscious can leave you vulnerable to all sorts of very frightening manipulation. 

And in all the work that I was involved in, 

there was always that danger. 

And there was always that question of tampering with people's lives,

because if I lead one of these workshops, 

then I do become partly a doctor

and partly a therapist, 

and partly a priest. 

And I'm not a doctor, 

or a therapist or a priest. 

And already some of these new monasteries, or communities 

or whatever we've been talking about are becoming institutionalized... 

and  I guess even in a way, 

at times, sort of fascistic. 

You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied elitist paranoia that grows up... a feeling of "Them" and "Us" that is very unsettling. 

But I mean, the thing is, Wally, 

I think it's the exaggerated worship of science that has led us into this situation. 

I mean, science has been held up to us as a magical force 

that would somehow solve everything. 

Well, quite the contrary. 

It's done quite the contrary. 

It's destroyed everything. 

So that is what has really led, I think to this very strong, deep reaction against Science that we're seeing now, just as the Nazi demons that were released in the '30s in Germany 

were probably a reaction against a certain oppressive kind of knowledge and culture and rational thinking. 

Sol agree that we're talking about something 

potentially very dangerous. 

But modern science has not been 

particularly less dangerous. 

Right. Well, I agree with you. I completely agree. No, you know, the truth is... I think I do know what really disturbs me about the work you've described... and I don't even know if I can express it. But somehow it seems that the whole point of the work that you did in those workshops... when you get right down to it and you ask what was it really about... The whole point, really, I think... was to enable the people in the workshops, including yourself... to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of purposefulness... from certain selected moments. And the point of it was so that you would then all be able to experience... somehow just pure being. In other words, you were trying to discover what it would be like to live for certain moments... without having any particular thing that you were supposed to be doing. And I think I just simply object to that. I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea that there should be moments... in which you're not trying to do anything. I think, it's our nature, to do things. I think we should do things. I think that, purposefulness... is part of our ineradicable basic human structure. And to say that we ought to be able to live without it... is like saying that, a tree ought to be able to live without branches or roots. 

But, but actually, without branches or roots, it wouldn't be a tree. I mean, it would just be a log. Do you see what I'm saying? I mean, in other words, if 

I'm sitting at home and I have nothing to do... well, I naturally reach for a book. I mean, what would be so great about just sitting there and, doing nothing? It just seems absurd. 

And if Debby is there? Well, that's just the same thing. I mean, is there really such a thing as, uh... two people doing nothing but just being together? I mean, would they simply then... be, "relating," to use the word we're always using? I mean, what would that mean? I mean, either we're gonna have a conversation... or we're going to, carry out the garbage... or we're going to do something, separately or together. I mean, do you see what I'm saying? I mean, what does it mean to just, simply, sit there? That makes you nervous. Well, why shouldn't it make me nervous? It just seems ridiculous to me. That's interesting, Wally. You know, when I went to Ladakh in western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month... well, there, you know, when people come over in the evening for tea, nobody says anything. Unless there's something to say, but there almost never is. So they just sit there and drink their tea, and it doesn't seem to bother them. I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with always being active and doing things... is that I think it's quite possible to do all sorts of things... and at the same time be completely dead inside. I mean, you're doing all these things, but are you doing them... because you really feel an impulse to do them... or are you doing them mechanically, as we were saying before? Because I really do believe that if you're just living mechanically... then you have to change your life. I mean, you know, when you're young, you go out on dates all the time. You go dancing or something. You're floating free. And then one day suddenly you find yourself in a relationship... and suddenly everything freezes. And this can be true in your work as well. And I mean, of course, if you're really alive inside... then of course there's no problem. I mean, if you're living with somebody in one little room... and there's a life going on between you and the person you're living with... well, then a whole adventure can be going on right in that room. But there's always the danger that things can go dead. Then I really do think you have to kind of become a hobo or something, you know... like Kerouac, and go out on the road. I really believe that. You know, it's not that wonderful to spend your life on the road. My own overwhelming preference is to stay in that room if you can. But you know, if you live with somebody for a long time, people are constantly saying... "Well, of course it's not as great as it used to be, but that's only natural. The first blush of a romance goes, and that's the way it has to be." Now, I totally disagree with that. But I do think that you have to constantly ask yourself the question, with total frankness: "Is your marriage still a marriage?" "Is the sacramental element there?" Just as you have to ask about the sacramental element in your work... "Is it still there?" 

I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally, to have to suddenly realize

that, my God, I thought I was living my life, but in fact I haven't been a human being. 

I've been a performer. I haven't been living. I've been acting.

I've, I've acted the role of the father. 

I've acted the role of the husband. 

I've acted the role of the friend. 

I've acted the role of the writer, or director, or what have you.

 I've lived in the same room with this person, 

but I haven't really seen them. 

I haven't really heard them. 

I haven't really been with them. 

Yeah, I know some people are just sometimes... uh, existing just side by side. I mean, the other person's, face could just turn into a great wolf's face... and, it just wouldn't be noticed. 

And it wouldn't be noticed, no. 

It wouldn't be noticed. 

I mean, when I was in Israel a little while ago... 

I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita 

that was taken when she... 

I always carry it with me. 

It was taken when she was about 26 or something. 

And it's in summer, and she's stretched out on a terrace

in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt that's kind of pulled up. 

And she's slim and sensual and beautiful. 

And I've always looked at that picture 

and just thought about just how sexy she looks. 

And then last year in Israel, I looked at the picture... 

and I realized that that face in the picture 

was the saddest face in the world. 

That girl at that time was just lost... 

so sad and so alone. 

I've been carrying this picture for years 

and not ever really seeing what it is, you know. 

I just never really looked at the picture. 

And then, at a certain point, I realised 

I'd just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel

except in the most extreme situations. 

I mean, to some extent, 

I still had the ability to live in my work. 

That was why I was such a work junkie. 

That was why I felt that every play that I did 

was a matter of my life or my death. 

But in my real life, I was dead. 

I was a robot. 

I mean, I didn't even allow myself 

to get angry or annoyed. 

I mean, you know, today Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina... 

All day long, as people do, 

they do things that annoy me 

and they say things that annoy me. 

And today I get annoyed. 

And they say, 

"Why are you annoyed?" 

And I say, 

"Because you're annoying." you know. 

And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility

of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita... 

I realized that what I wanted most in life 

was to always be with her. 

But at that time, I hadn't learned 

what it would be like to let yourself 

react to another human being. 

And if you can't react to Another Person,

then there's no possibility of action or interaction. 

And if there isn't, I don't really know what the word "Love" means

except Duty, Obligation, Sentimentality, Fear. 

I mean... I don't know about you, Wally, but I... 

I just had to put myself 

into 

a kind of training program 

to learn 

How to Be A Human Being. 

I mean, How Did I Feel 

About Anything? 

I Didn't Know. 

What kind of things did I like? 

What kind of people did I really want to be with? You know? 

And the only way that I could think of 

to find out was to just cut out all the noise 

and stop performing all the time 

and just listen to what was inside me. 

See, I think a time comes 

when you need to do that. 

Now, maybe in order to do it, you have to go to the Sahara... and maybe you can do it at home. But you need to cut out the noise. Yeah. Of course, personally, I, I just... I usually don't like those quiet moments, you know. I really don't. I mean, I don't know if it's that, Freudian thing or what... But, you know, the fear of unconscious impulses... or my own aggression or whatever, but... if things get too quiet, and I find myself just, sitting there... you know, as we were saying before... 

I mean, whether I'm by myself, or, or I'm, I'm with someone else... 

I just, I just have this feeling of... my God, I'm going to be revealed. In other words, I'm adequate to do any sort of a task... but I'm not adequate, just to, to be a human being. I mean, in other words, I'm not... If l'm just, trapped there and I'm not allowed to do things... but all I can do is just, be there... well, I'll just fail