Imagine all this Division and Deconstruction was just a corridor we’re passing through.
All the Fractioning and Separation
— that’s typicalof Horus.
We can see The Hand of Horus in the Modern-Day tearing down of Monuments and Statues.
He’s kicking The Fuck out of formerly stable Systems all around The World.
That’s exactly what you would expect of This Spirit that Crowley said manifested first in 1913.
But for me, I think he made his presence felt quite clearly on 9/11.
You can easily organize the evidence to suggest that there is an Aeon of Horus occurring now.
Where Systems are being taken down, where everything’s being Questioned and Audited, and The Past is subject to major revision.
So, there’s also some fun to be had in thinking
“Ok, if this is actually playing out in some symbolic fashion, then
What might The Aeon of Ma’at look like, artistically?’
What advice do you have for the magicians out there who have a story to tell and want to storm the reality studio?
GM: Tell a different story. Tell a fresh story that speaks to its times and the people around you. A story that offers possibilities, exit strategies, rather than apocalypse and ruin. I can’t see that there’s anything else…
In the Wonder Woman book I’m doing, for instance, I’ve actively avoided writing the boy hero story that’s so ubiquitous as to seem inescapable — the familiar story of the One, the champion, the Joseph Campbell monomyth thing that drives so many Hollywood movies and YA stories. We’ve seen it. The Lion King. The callow youth loses mom or dad, or his comfortable place in the tribe, and he has to fight his way back to save the kingdom from its corrupt old leader, before claiming the captive princess and becoming the new king and… ad infinitum. The Circle of Life if it only applied to boys. I thought, where is the mythic heroine’s story? In Ishtar Rising, Wilson talks about the myth of Inanna, and how she goes down into Hell and has to give up everything of herself to gain the wisdom and experience she can bring back to her tribe. Privileging the network rather than the sovereign individual.
And so, as I thought about the differences between the hero’s and the heroine’s journey, it gave me a bunch of different modes to work in. Finding ways to avoid telling the boy hero story again was quite liberating. It just gave me a bunch of new ideas, an interesting new way of telling stories that didn’t rely on the framework of the hero’s journey that Campbell talks about.
Playing the devil’s advocate here. Today there is a lot of fervor around identity, and there is one strong of thought that people can never truly understand what it is like walking in the shoes of others. Some may ask why a white man would seek to tell the story of a woman, from her perspective, instead of just sticking to what he knows, being a man.
How authentically real is that character or story, etc.?
GM: It’s important to air These Feelings for debate. I must admit, with all respect, that I COMPLETELY disagree with The Idea That We Cannot Understand One Another.
Firstly, there’s a major obvious problem about coming at things from this perspective — if fundamentally, we cannot TRULY Know or have any Meaningful Opinion on What it Feels Like to be X, then we may as well STOP LISTENING to ANYTHING Anyone Else has to Say about Their Personal Experience, on The Basis That it can only be IRRELEVANT to Our SPECIFIC Lives!
If I can never TRULY Understand You without Walking in Your Shoes and vice versa, WHAT'S THE POINT of Listening or Talking to ANYONE about Our experience? What’s The POINT of Writing Stories, or Protesting, or Making Art if experience cannot by its nature be communicated and understood by ANYONE who has not shared The Experience of The Artist, or The Writer?
I think we all know it doesn’t really work that way in The Real World. We don’t need to BE a thing to have some Understanding of How it Operates.
People can be great Veterinarians without personally experiencing the day-to-day Inner Lives of Dogs and Cats.
I can read Solzhenitsyn and shed empathic tears for The Inmates of the Gulag without having to REPRISE their EXACY experience.
To think otherwise might be, I suspect, a Symptom of Narcissism painted into its inevitable corner, its Private Echo Chamber – destructive, divided, atomized, individualistic to the point of self-abnegation – and indicative of Late stage Osiris pathology.
And you know, We actually DO Understand one another in so many ways.
We can imagine what it’s like to live someone else’s life –— or we can have our imaginations enflamed by well-told tales of other people’s lives and thrill to the ways they resonate exactly with our own lived experience.
As a Writer, I KNOW This to Be True.
We’ve been observing one another’s behavior and drawing conclusions since The Dawn of Humanity.
People AREN'T so complicated or new that the basic functions remain a mystery.
All our plays, poems, songs and stories are a record of our attempts to understand ourselves and one another.
The fact that Greek drama or Shakespeare still speaks to us is evidence that basic human nature has remained fairly consistent for thousands of years.
We figured one another out a long, long time ago.
And ultimately, I’ll say again, we are all the same organism. What we’re seeing is ring fingers fighting with thumbs, eyelashes screaming that eyebrows can never understand them!
To point that out is probably an anathema in this current time of Narcissistic Inflation but it will be understood as a Fact of Nature in The End.
Maybe I’m wrong and we’re all fucked because humans are a kind of cancer-creature and our only purpose is to destroy each other and all other lifeforms on our planet… there’s still time for Agent Smith to be proved right!
I think everyone should have to imagine what it’s like to be someone else. We can all learn from one other but that means communicating; that means starting with the assumption we do have a common basis for genuine understanding even if our specific circumstances can never be repeated or totally understood by anyone other than ourselves. We all hurt, we all feel joy, we all get turned on, or scared. We all experience loss, and lack of self-worth and feel badly treated by the world at times.
And I understand why everyone should talk and tell stories from their own position you know but it’s also very useful – and a major human talent – to imagine how other people feel and consider how the world might look through their eyes.
And you do that by staying informed, listening to voices even when you disagree with them –—and by employing empathy and imagination to put yourself in their place as best as you’re able.
These are difficult times. I’m not a guru. I don’t know what to say to make it all better. There’s seven in a half billion people and it often seems they all fucking hate each other! Yet they all want everyone else to agree with their tiny, restricted, localized points of view. And they’ve all got a piece of ground to defend against perceived foes. I get it, but ultimately, we’re all one thing, one massive organism that’s going through difficult growing pains at the moment, so maybe we need to start thinking about what makes us alike, rather than different.
I hope so
GM: Well, this is part of the boiling process. Capitalist Consumer Culture has clearly reached its LIMITS and we either Advance to a More Efficient, Stable, Less-Suicidal and Aggressive Engagement with other people and our environment or we go extinct as a species, taking all the whales and tigers and gorillas with us, before we even figured out how to talk to them and hear their stories! There are few options remaining.
The current questioning, the judgmental audit of where we are and how we got here, is a Horus thing. We can only hope we sublimate from here via Ma’at into something more nurturing and sustainable.
It is a hot moment. Temperatures are rising, Artic ice caps are melting at an alarming rate, and people may be unconsciously registering all that, and doing a horrible job at it. Instead of dealing with one’s own sense of panic, constriction, and fear it looks like many people are just running hot.
GM: I feel like every word we say is now a potential indictment, you know. The last malignant thrashing of the passing Aeon of Osiris.
The Echoes of The Inquisition, accusations of ‘WrongThink’, The Return of Original Sin, The Demonic GLEE taken in any stumble or falter from The Approved Path seems almost mediaeval.
It’s terrifying.
The potential for misunderstanding is almost infinite and its almost fated that we will struggle to abide by Rules That Grow ever more Authoritarian and Specific every day.
Again, all that feels to me like the last ferocious attempts at asserting its fading Power by The Osiris Energy of The Last 2000 years, now gone Rotten and Unsustainable but trying HARDER to Keep Everything and Everybody under Increasingly Deranged levels of Control in every area of our lives.
Writers and artists can find more reasons to stop their expression than ever before it seems. The voice of Criticism and Judgement is easier to find these days, just doom scroll through various social media sites and it’s all over the place.
GM: I regard it all as new input. As tough as it is, there’s an excitement. It’s Making Me Think, it’s making me question myself and my assumptions, it’s making me write different things. I love ideas that Challenge My Thinking — even if I don’t AGREE with them in The End.
fem. proper name, often a diminutive of Clara and its relatives. Also, "a nun of the order of St. Clare" (1790s); the Franciscan order also known as the Poor Clares (c. 1600).
The Word “Remember” is extremely important....
Almost Famous - "Starway to Heaven" Deleted Scene
“Lenina Crowne has a really hard time in the book , as she is always being slapped around by a sociopathic, Shakespeare-quoting, sex-negative John the Savage.
So, the notion was — let’s do something more modern and radical.
In terms of my magical practice, this ties Brave New World to my thoughts about the Aeon of Ma’at, the Goddess of Truth, Balance and Harmony.
In the book, Lenina is treated quiet badly and comes to a grim end, so I thought let’s make her the central character of this new version.
The Savage Lands depicts a childlike level of society; John is tied to his mother and has very little agency.
The World State has progressed to teenage; with its non-stop music and parties and strict social demarcation into easily-identifiable ‘Tribes’.
The idea was to have Lenina begin to work with the Indra to build a truly ‘adult’ Utopia… which would lead us into season 2…
I’ve seen critics complain about the Brave New World sex scenes not being sexy but that was the point we were making!
There’s even a major scene of intimacy between John and Lenina that deliberately exists in contrast to the shallow hedonism of the orgies.
In This World, sex is more like a social duty, or it’s like Sport.
It doesn’t involve the Guilt and the excitement, the Transgression and the Passion that we associate with sex at all.
Speaking of this new myth and ethos, for a few years now you have been speaking about the Aeon of Ma’at. Is this the strongest current you see in humanity these days?
GM: It’s still a subcurrent at the moment, as the patriarchal Aeon of Osiris bows out kicking and screaming but I think it’s the only one that gives us any chance of Survival right now. It’s not like this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.
For me these ideas are interesting metaphors; they’re filters, and I find that if I apply this particular filter suggested by Kenneth Grant and Crowley it allows me to see things in a different relationship, which is very creatively rewarding if nothing else.
Viewing The World through the filter of these Thelemic notions, what’s happening right now all around us suddenly becomes not only obviousbut almost predictable.
It’s important to emphasize that this is not something to ‘believe’ in. This is a metaphor and not a belief system.
But new metaphors can change whole cultures as we know from Our History.
Crowley said that the general tenor of the last six thousand years of human civilization could be summed up by the personalities of a family of Egyptian gods.
And the first two thousand years up to the birth of Christ, this was the Age of Isis, The Mother Goddess, where people were hunter/gatherers or early agrarians living off The Land, relying on ‘Mother Earth’, the seasons and the tides.
So, the next Aeon from Christ onward is The Aeon of Osiris, The Dying and Resurrected God. Osiris is also The Law Giver and He brings with Him The Written Word, so now Ideas can be enshrined in books and books can outlast generations and they take on the aura of Gods Themselves.
God Himself is present in the works of The Bible.
God Himself is present in The Quran.
So certainly, there’s this programming code language, the instructional Dad Language, which can take people over just from reading a book and turn them into Agents of The Dad God’s Expansionist, Controlling Agenda.
This is when Nature goes from Provider to something that exists to be tamed and exploited. That’s The Aeon of Osiris.
Following Osiris, comes this fiery breakdown, the child Horus is the son of Osiris and he’s every jihadi, every warrior, every rock star reformer, every young man who sees as his sacred mission the tearing down of structures, the questioning of rules. It’s punk rock, “I gotta tear it all down.” But running in tandem with that, according to Kenneth Grant, is the shadow Aeon of Ma’at, Horus’ sister and she’s the goddess of truth and balance and harmony and all that Wonder Woman stuff.
For me, having gone through the Abyss of Da’ath in the Thelema structure of initiation — having undergone that in a really experiential and exhausting way, I found myself in the Qabbalistic sphere of Binah, and The Entire World suddenly looked very different and made sense in different configurations which re-energized the work I’d been doing.
So, I decided to accept that The Aeon of Ma’at was coming down fast and I tried to align all my thinking with that, which provided me with a new bunch of metaphors and ways of framing the world.
Imagine all this division and deconstruction was just a corridor we’re passing through. All the fractioning and separation —that’s typical of Horus. We can see the hand of Horus in the modern-day tearing down of monuments and statues. He’s kicking The Fuck out of formerly stable systems all around the world. That’s exactly what you would expect of this spirit that Crowley said manifested first in 1913. But for me, I think he made his presence felt quite clearly on 9/11.
You can easily organize The Evidence to suggest that there is an Aeon of Horus occurring now. Where Systems are being taken-down, where everything’s being Questioned and Audited, and The Past is subject to Major Revision.
So, there’s also some fun to be had in thinking “Ok, if this is actually playing out in some symbolic fashion, then what might the Aeon of Ma’at look like, artistically?’
And to me it looks like the rise of marginalized voices, it looks like more women coming into the discourse. It looks like trans people coming into the discourse. It looks like all the opportunities for groups who were disempowered by the Patriarchy, who couldn’t speak before to have their say.
Ma’at – What would her signature disease be? Well it might be a distributed network, a viral malady that could attack All of Humanity. What would happen if She emptied The Houses of The Old Gods as a Show of Possibility?
You remember at the height of the first lockdown, all the churches were empty, all the sports stadiums were empty, all the mosques were empty, all the temples were empty. So, the Dad god had nowhere to go.
In Britain, I know, and I’m sure in America, there was a strange uprising of praise for care workers. People would go out every Thursday here and bang on pots and pans and basically thank the nurturing spirt, this caring spirit, for its very existence. It was a very religious, ritualistic thing that we were all doing. That’s Ma’at right there.
Then there’s Mother Nature with hurricanes tearing down borders, storms ravaging everyone’s homes. It all suddenly makes sense in a new context if you use the filter of Ma’at to look at The World.
For me, I’ve found some creative applications for it, like in Brave New World and the Wonder Woman comic that I’ve done.
Let’s talk about Magick. How does one get better at it?
GM: By doing it on a regular basis! It’s like a martial art or a musical talent.
If you dedicate yourself to Learning and Practice, if you read other magician’s accounts, if you Pay Attention, then you start to notice details that the less engaged will miss and this allows you to do things that other people may regard as magical or even supernatural.
Just like a stage conjurer, or a great guitarist, or a gifted actor or artist can do. It’s just about really paying attention and Doing The Work to see What Happens.
It’s just a way of looking at things in a fresh light and then working with this augmented version of reality in ways that can appear supernatural.
One of Magic’s main attractions involves bringing things Into Being, from the conception or thought all the way to solid materiality.
Making The Insubstantial tangible.
But there’s also a whole other thing. Magic is about deliberately inducing unusual states of consciousness. Some of these states of consciousness have been called Gods because they feel Super Organized and Positive, and some of them can be called Demons because they feel Chaotic, Violent, Hateful and Perverted or whatever.
That’s part of Magic.
It’s as simple as how can you create different states of consciousness?
Magic uses spells or rituals, some developed over many centuries, to stimulate specific focused states of consciousness, whether demonic or angelic or god like.
Psychedelics and hallucinogens have been used by shamans for the same purpose.
And the written word along with the expression of it are all magic. In the sense that words themselves hold such tremendous power.
GM: If you can limit the language you can reduce the scope of a conjuror. George Orwell warns us about that in the appendices to 1984.
If you restrict the language, if you make it impossible to express abstract ideas, then you put boundaries on people’s ability to think creatively or communicate certain concepts.
It Does Work. Words shouldn’t have the kind of power and meaning that we attribute to them but most of us grew up in The Aeon of Osiris, where words have been really important and fundamental to human progress.
Words mean The Law, words mean The Bible, or The Constitution, words define The Divine Rules by which we abide. The 10 Commandments.
As any writer can tell you; words are just things that dance around when you play with them. They can mean all kinds of different things.
They bring with them the distortions of interpretation where the words of Christ – ‘love your enemies’ – can be twisted to motivate bloody genocidal Crusades. I think Wilson was trying to undermine people’s fear of the perceived authority and power of words as things in themselves.
For sure. There are some big words that have been added to the dictionary over the last 20 years, specifically Beyonce’s ‘bootylicious.’
GM: Well exactly, there you go man. But still I don’t exactly know what it’s describing, but I can almost taste it!
Adding on the to the notion of words and symbols being charged with magic, they have also been charged through the increasing amounts of propaganda over the course of the 20th Century and into today. Isn’t that something that RAW is constantly reminding readers, that propaganda is real, and lots of it feeds off your base emotions, like anger and fear. Most people don’t recognize that cuz they haven’t seen the FNORDS!
GM: It’s more like people’s sense of the immense energy compressed into certain words. It’s not the word itself – as Wilson reminds us ‘fuck’ is a ‘bad’ word but it doesn’t sound much different from ‘folk’, a ‘good’ word, and it means the same as ‘coitus’, another ‘good’ word. So where exactly does the wickedness and dirtiness of ‘fuck’ reside?
Words become fetishized for reasons good or bad and the more fetishized they are, the more taboo they become, which confers an aura of outlaw sexiness that attracts some people to them.
Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Bob Wilson himself, all made a point of saying that words should not be given this kind of power because once they have this power, they can become fetishized and weaponized. If you de-power a word then it can’t be used to trigger other people in the same reliable way, but we’re just not in that phase, with the dislocated politics of culture right now. I think people got it right to take down some of these structures right now and perhaps it’s okay to retire certain radioactive, abusive terms as long as we make sure we’re creating new words in other areas.
As a for instance, when I was a kid there were no words to describe certain aspects of my own experience. I’ve been non-binary, cross-dressing, ‘gender queer’ since I was 10 years old, but the available terms for what I was doing and how I felt were few and far between. We had ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’ both of which sounded like DSM classifications rather than lifestyle choices! I didn’t want to be labelled as medical aberration because that’s not how it felt, nor was it something cut-and-dried and done. I didn’t want to ‘transition’ or embody my ‘female’ side exclusively, so I had no idea where I fit in.
Terms like ‘genderqueer’ and ‘non-binary’ only came into vogue in the mid-90s. So kids like me had very limited ways of describing our attraction to drag and sexual ambiguity. Nowadays there’s this whole new vocabulary, allowing kids to figure out exactly where they sit on the ‘color wheel’ of gender and sexuality, so I think it’s OK to lose a few contentious words when you are creating new ones that offer a more finely-grained approach to experience.
When we make the jump to a non-Roman-alphabet-based emoji language for purposes of radio telepathic communication, things will change once more.
This conversation of neutralizing the charge from taboo words is also a premise of RAW’s Ishtar Rising, which you wrote the introduction of the newest reprinting of the book by Hilaritas Press. Also, in that book, Wilson explores the mythical trope of the underground journey, something explored and unpacked in nearly all his books.
Joseph Campbell has some cool stuff to say about the Underground Journey, mainly that in all his studies of world myths he had observed two types of underground journey stories. One type was when the underground swallows up a poor soul like the whale did to Jonah. When this happens, the sole purpose of the seeker is to just survive the ordeal and return to the surface in one piece. The second type of journey through the underground occurs when the hero or heroine must descend into the depths and kill a monster. Campbell mentions one myth where the hero must slay a dragon then drink its blood to gain its power and move on and continue their quest. Campbell associates this killing of the dragon and drinking its blood as an integration of our shadows into our psyches. By integrating these elements of ourselves we then gain the sort of personal power needed to live a joyful and energetically engaged life.
GM: Yeah, and the story of the underground journey in Britain often involves someone finding a cave where he sees all of King Arthur’s knights asleep just waiting for the time of England’s greatest need when they will have to rise up and fight the final battle against evil. So that’s a more passive version of the story. Someone goes in and finds these sleeping warriors. That’s the personal power, that’s the higher self that will arise when you need it most.
Wilson has a dark side version of this exact legend at the end of Illuminatus with the undead Nazi battalions awaiting their orders to rise from Lake Totenkopf and reclaim the world!
What advice do you have for the magicians out there who have a story to tell and want to storm the reality studio?
GM: Tell a different story. Tell a fresh story that speaks to its times and the people around you. A story that offers possibilities, exit strategies, rather than apocalypse and ruin. I can’t see that there’s anything else…
In the Wonder Woman book I’m doing, for instance, I’ve actively avoided writing the boy hero story that’s so ubiquitous as to seem inescapable — the familiar story of the One, the champion, the Joseph Campbell monomyth thing that drives so many Hollywood movies and YA stories. We’ve seen it. The Lion King. The callow youth loses mom or dad, or his comfortable place in the tribe, and he has to fight his way back to save the kingdom from its corrupt old leader, before claiming the captive princess and becoming the new king and… ad infinitum. The Circle of Life if it only applied to boys. I thought, where is the mythic heroine’s story? In Ishtar Rising, Wilson talks about the myth of Inanna, and how she goes down into Hell and has to give up everything of herself to gain the wisdom and experience she can bring back to her tribe. Privileging the network rather than the sovereign individual.
And so, as I thought about the differences between the hero’s and the heroine’s journey, it gave me a bunch of different modes to work in. Finding ways to avoid telling the boy hero story again was quite liberating. It just gave me a bunch of new ideas, an interesting new way of telling stories that didn’t rely on the framework of the hero’s journey that Campbell talks about.
Playing the devil’s advocate here. Today there is a lot of fervor around identity, and there is one strong of thought that people can never truly understand what it is like walking in the shoes of others. Some may ask why a white man would seek to tell the story of a woman, from her perspective, instead of just sticking to what he knows, being a man.
How authentically real is that character or story, etc.?
GM: It’s important to air these feelings for debate. I must admit, with all respect, that I completely disagree with the idea that we cannot understand one another.
Firstly, there’s a major obvious problem about coming at things from this perspective — if fundamentally, we cannot truly know or have any meaningful opinion on what it feels like to be X, then we may as well stop listening to anything anyone else has to say about their personal experience, on the basis that it can only be irrelevant to our specific lives!
If I can never truly understand you without walking in your shoes and vice versa, what’s the point of listening or talking to anyone about our experience? What’s the point of writing stories, or protesting, or making art if experience cannot by its nature be communicated and understood by anyone who has not shared the experience of the artist, or the writer?
I think we all know it doesn’t really work that way in the real world. We don’t need to be a thing to have some understanding of how it operates. People can be great veterinarians without personally experiencing the day-to-day inner lives of dogs and cats. I can read Solzhenitsyn and shed empathic tears for the inmates of the Gulag without having to reprise their exact experience.
To think otherwise might be, I suspect, a symptom of narcissism painted into its inevitable corner, its private echo chamber – destructive, divided, atomized, individualistic to the point of self-abnegation – and indicative of late stage Osiris pathology.
And you know, we actually do understand one another in so many ways. We can imagine what it’s like to live someone else’s life –— or we can have our imaginations enflamed by well-told tales of other people’s lives and thrill to the ways they resonate exactly with our own lived experience. As a writer, I know this to be true.
We’ve been observing one another’s behavior and drawing conclusions since the dawn of humanity. People aren’t so complicated or new that the basic functions remain a mystery. All our plays, poems, songs and stories are a record of our attempts to understand ourselves and one another. The fact that Greek drama or Shakespeare still speaks to us is evidence that basic human nature has remained fairly consistent for thousands of years.
We figured one another out a long, long time ago.
And ultimately, I’ll say again, we are all the same organism. What we’re seeing is ring fingers fighting with thumbs, eyelashes screaming that eyebrows can never understand them! To point that out is probably an anathema in this current time of narcissistic inflation but it will be understood as a fact of nature in the end.
Maybe I’m wrong and we’re all fucked because humans are a kind of cancer-creature and our only purpose is to destroy each other and all other lifeforms on our planet… there’s still time for Agent Smith to be proved right!
I think everyone should have to imagine what it’s like to be someone else. We can all learn from one other but that means communicating; that means starting with the assumption we do have a common basis for genuine understanding even if our specific circumstances can never be repeated or totally understood by anyone other than ourselves. We all hurt, we all feel joy, we all get turned on, or scared. We all experience loss, and lack of self-worth and feel badly treated by the world at times.
And I understand why everyone should talk and tell stories from their own position you know but it’s also very useful – and a major human talent – to imagine how other people feel and consider how the world might look through their eyes.
And you do that by staying informed, listening to voices even when you disagree with them –—and by employing empathy and imagination to put yourself in their place as best as you’re able.
These are difficult times. I’m not a guru. I don’t know what to say to make it all better. There’s seven in a half billion people and it often seems they all fucking hate each other! Yet they all want everyone else to agree with their tiny, restricted, localized points of view. And they’ve all got a piece of ground to defend against perceived foes. I get it, but ultimately, we’re all one thing, one massive organism that’s going through difficult growing pains at the moment, so maybe we need to start thinking about what makes us alike, rather than different.
I hope so
GM: Well, this is part of the boiling process. Capitalist consumer culture has clearly reached its limits and we either advance to a more efficient, stable, less suicidal and aggressive engagement with other people and our environment or we go extinct as a species, taking all the whales and tigers and gorillas with us, before we even figured out how to talk to them and hear their stories! There are few options remaining.
The current questioning, the judgmental audit of where we are and how we got here, is a Horus thing. We can only hope we sublimate from here via Ma’at into something more nurturing and sustainable.
It is a hot moment. Temperatures are rising, Artic ice caps are melting at an alarming rate, and people may be unconsciously registering all that, and doing a horrible job at it. Instead of dealing with one’s own sense of panic, constriction, and fear it looks like many people are just running hot.
GM: I feel like every word we say is now a potential indictment, you know. The last malignant thrashing of the passing Aeon of Osiris. The echoes of the Inquisition, accusations of ‘wrongthink’, the return of Original Sin, the demonic glee taken in any stumble or falter from the approved path seems almost mediaeval. It’s terrifying. The potential for misunderstanding is almost infinite and its almost fated that we will struggle to abide by rules that grow ever more authoritarian and specific every day. Again, all that feels to me like the last ferocious attempts at asserting its fading power by the Osiris energy of the last 2000 years, now gone rotten and unsustainable but trying harder to keep everything and everybody under increasingly deranged levels of control in every area of our lives.
Writers and artists can find more reasons to stop their expression than ever before it seems. The voice of criticism and judgement is easier to find these days, just doom scroll through various social media sites and it’s all over the place.
GM: I regard it all as new input. As tough as it is, there’s an excitement. It’s making me think, it’s making me question myself and my assumptions, it’s making me write different things. I love ideas that challenge my thinking — even if I don’t agree with them in the end.
What are your thoughts on Simulation Theory these days?
GM: I was reading New Scientist recently and one of the correspondents on the letters page threw out this random idea that really resonated with me. The writer was saying that if we live in a simulation then perhaps the world in the past was not as detailed or as high fidelity as it we experience it now! There have been upgrades, developments. In computer game terms, think of the difference between Space Invaders and Red Dead Redemption 2!
And I thought, wow, wouldn’t that be funny if, you know, those medieval painters with the flat landscapes and no perspective, what if they were accurately representing an earlier, more simplistic iteration of our simulated reality? What if they were simply portraying what the world actually looked like in the early stages of the simulation! What if these artists were recording what they saw and that’s how it looked?
Suddenly I saw the history of art in a whole new light! I thought how cool it would be if the cave paintings at Lascaux represented caveman reality perfectly – that’s how the simulated world really looked in an early development of the simulation when we were all just stick figures with antlers and the animals were sketchy semi-abstracts…
I love that idea; that the simulation is becoming more complex and well-rendered as it goes along – and we can see where it’s been.
It almost seems like it will become harder to break the Matrix as it becomes more refined, nuanced and easier to mistake for reality. It is interesting looking at the Simulation theory with the idea of calling it a metaphor for the same thing that the Gnostics came up with.
GM: Yeah, the idea that the universe is a counterfeit created not by god but by some sort of underling of god… that was the gnostic idea. It’s not so much about breaking the Matrix, I feel it’s more about learning to work with it. In the movie, once Neo figures out how it works, he becomes a magician, a superhero. The counterfeit world in the movie seems much more fun than the real one. Can magic be a useful tool for navigating VR and AR in IRL?
GM: Yeah, because magic is just about adding meaning or enchantment to the environment and to your life. Magic spices up everything; it’s like hot sauce! Once you add magic, the universe comes to life and starts to dance with you. If you choose to be an exploiter, a black magician, it’s more like a lap dance but otherwise it’s a tango! As I’ve said before, it’s easy to add magic to things. If you decide a certain stone could use some magic power, then carry it with you long enough and it will become first a good luck talisman and will finally accrue the significance and meaning of a Holy Grail if it’s given enough time and attention. So, the more meaning you can add to experience, the more magical it will seem. It’s not difficult or ‘occult’ at all. Magic makes everything more exciting, rich and alive and that’s its job. The more magic you can create around something the more special your interaction with it will feel.
“Say, for instance… most of us here are mostly pretty counter-culture types – y’know, we like our drugs, we like this and that; we like breaking a few rules.
But we don’t likeThe Police, in general.
Who here loves The Police? Hands up.
Nice one! Coz I’m gonna teach you to LOVE The Police.....”
“ARE WE DOING TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE?”
Wonder Woman asked, cradling a dying bird in a dust-bowl landscape.
“WHEN DOES INTERVENTION BECOME DOMINATION?”
“I CAN ONLY TELL YOU WHAT I BELIEVE, DIANA,”
Superman replied.
“HUMANKIND HAS TO BE ALLOWED TO CLIMB TO ITS OWN DESTINY.
WE CAN’T CARRY THEM THERE.”
Then the Flash countered with:
“BUT THAT’S WHAT SHE’S SAYING.
WHAT’S THE POINT?
WHY SHOULD THEY NEED US AT ALL?”
“TO CATCH THEM IF THEY FALL,”
said Superman, gazing nobly at the sky.
Issue no. 1 of the relaunched Justice League of America in 1987 had depicted its characters from an overhead perspective, giving the reader an elevated position that allowed us to look down on a newly humanized and relatable group of individuals.
At my request, Howard Porter drew our first cover shot of the JLA from below, endowing them with the majesty of towering statues on Mount Olympus, putting readers at the level of children gazing up at adults. JLA was a superhero title kids could read to feel grown-up and adults could read to feel young again.”
“Just beyond the railing that keeps cars from rolling over, a Young Man actually clearly about to jump and preparing himself to jump.
The Police car stopped.
The Policeman on the right jumps out to grab The Boy, and grabs him just as he jumped and was himself being pulled over, and would have gone over if The Second Cop hadn’t gotten around, grabbed him and pull the two of them back.
And The Policeman was asked,
“Why didn’t you let go?
I mean, you would have lost your life?”
And you see what had happened to that man,
this is what’s known as one pointed meditation
Everything Else in His Life dropped off.
His Duty to His Family
His Duty to His Job
His Duty to His Own Career
All of his Wishes and Hopes for Life,
just disappeared and he was about to go.
And his answer was,
“I couldn’t let go.
If I had let that Young Man go,
I could not have lived another Day of My Life.”
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
The God of Death is The Lord of Sex at the same time.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you mean?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
It’s a marvelous thing.
One after another, you can see these gods Ghede, The Death God of the Haitian voodoo, is also The Sex God.
Wotan had one eye covered and the other uncovered, do you see, and at the same time was The Lord of Life.
Osiris, The Lord of Death and The Lord of The Generation of Life.
It’s a basic theme: That Which Dies is Born.
You have to have Death in order to have Life.
Now, this is the origin thought really of the head hunt, in Southeast Asia and particularly in the Indonesian zone.
The head hunt, right up to now, has been a sacred act,
it’s a sacred killing:
Unless there is Death, there cannot be Birth, and a Young Man, before he can be permitted to Marry and Become a Father, must have gone forth and had his kill.
BILL MOYERS:
What does that say to you?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Well, that every generation has to die in order that the next generation should come.
As soon as you beget or give birth to a child, you are the dead one; the child is the new life and you are simply the protector of that new life.
BILL MOYERS:
Your time has come and you know it.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Yeah, well, that’s why there is this deep psychological association of begetting and dying.
BILL MOYERS:
Isn’t there some relationship between what you’re saying and this fact,
that a father will give his life for his son,
a mother will give her life for her child?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
There’s a wonderful paper.
I don’t whether you knew it that I would love to talk to this point there’s a wonderful paper by Schopenhauer, who’s one of my three favorite philosophers, called
“The Foundation of Morality.”
There he asks exactly the question that you’ve asked.
How is it that a human being can so participate in the peril or pain of another, that without thought, spontaneously, he sacrifices his own life to the other?
How can this happen?
That what we normally think of as the first law of nature, namely self-preservation, is suddenly dissolved, there’s a breakthrough.
In Hawaii, some four or five years ago, there was an extraordinary adventure that represents this problem.
There’s a place there called the Pali, where the winds from the north, the trade winds from the north, come breaking through a great ridge of rocks and of mountain, and they come through with a great blast of wind.
The people like to go up there to get their hair blown around and so forth, or to commit suicide, you know, like jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.
Well, a police car was on its way up early, a little road that used to go up there, and they saw just beyond the railing that keeps cars from rolling over, a young man actually clearly about to jump and prepare himself to jump.
The police car stopped.
The policeman on the right jumps out to grab the boy, and grabs him just as he jumped and was himself being pulled over, and would have gone over if the second cop hadn’t gotten around, grabbed him and pull the two of them back.
There was a long description of this, it was a marvelous thing, in the newspapers at that time.
And the policeman was asked, “Why didn’t you let go? I mean, you would have lost your life?”
And you see what had happened to that man, this is what’s known as one pointed meditation everything else in his life dropped off. His duty to his family, his duty to his job, his duty to his own career, all of his wishes and hopes for life, just disappeared and he was about to go. And his answer was, “I couldn’t let go. If I had,” and I’m quoting almost word for word, “if I’d let that young man go, I could not have lived another day of my life.”
How come?
Schopenhauer’s answer is, this is the breakthrough of a metaphysical realization that you and the other are one.
And that the separateness is only an effect of the temporal forms of sensibility of time and space.
And a true reality is in that unity with all life.
It is a metaphysical truth that becomes spontaneously realized, because it’s the real truth of your life.
Now, you might say the hero is the one who has given his physical life, you might say, to some order of realization of that truth.
It may appear that I’m one with my tribe, or I’m one with people of a certain kind, or I’m one with life.
This is not a concept; this is a realization, do you see what I mean?
BILL MOYERS:
No, explain it.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
And the concepts of love your neighbor and all are to put you in tune with that fact, but whether you love your neighbor or not, bing, the thing grabs you and you do this thing.
You don’t even know who it is.
That policeman didn’t know who that young man was.
And Schopenhauer says in small ways you can see this happening every day all the time.
This is a theme that can be seen moving life in the world, people doing nice things for each other.
BILL MOYERS:
What do you think has happened to this mythic idea of the hero in our culture today?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
It comes up in an experience.
I think, I remember during the Vietnam war, seeing on the television the young men in helicopters going out to rescue one of their companions at great risk to themselves.
They didn’t have to rescue that young man; that’s the same thing working.
It puts them in touch with the experience of being alive.
Going to the office every day, you don’t get that experience, but suddenly you’re ripped out into being alive.
And life is pain and life is suffering and life is horror, but by God, you’re alive and it’s spectacular. And this is a case of being alive, rescuing that young man.
BILL MOYERS:
But I also know a man who said once, after years of standing on the platform of the subway,
“I die a little bit down there every day, but I know I’m doing so for my family.”
There are small acts of heroism that occur without regard to the nobility or the notoriety that you attract for it.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
That’s right, that’s right.
BILL MOYERS:
And the mother does it by the isolation she endures in behalf of the family, of raising…
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Motherhood is a sacrifice.
On our veranda in Hawaii, there are little birds that come that Jean likes to feed.
And each year there have been one or two mothers, mother birds.
And if you’ve ever seen a mother bird plagued by her progeny for food, that the mother should regurgitate their meal to them, and the two of them, or five of them in one case, flopping all over this poor little mother, they bigger than she in some cases, you just think, well, this is the symbol of motherhood.
This is just giving of your substance, every thing, to this progeny.
There should be it in marriage.
A marriage is a relationship.
When you make a sacrifice in marriage, you’re not sacrificing to The Other, you’re sacrificing to The Eelationship.
And this is symbolised, for example, in that Chinese image of the tai chi, the tao, you know, with the dark and the light interacting, it’s a well-known sign.
That is the relationship of yang and yin, male and female, which is what a marriage is.
And that’s what you are, you’re no longer This,
you’re The Relationship.
And so marriage, I would say,
is not a love affair, it’s An Ordeal.
BILL MOYERS:
An ordeal?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
The ordeal is sacrifice of ego to the relationship, of a two-ness which now becomes the one.
BILL MOYERS:
One not only biologically but spiritually,
and primarily spiritually.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Primarily spiritually.
BILL MOYERS:
But the necessary function of marriage, in order to create our own images and perpetuate ourselves in children, but it’s not the primary one, as you say.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
No, that’s really just the elementary aspect of marriage.
There are two completely different stages of marriage.
First is the youthful marriage, following the wonderful impulse, you know, that nature has given us, in the interplay of the sexes biologically.
And in the reproduction of children.
But there comes a time when the child graduates from the family, and the family is left.
I’ve been amazed at the number of my friends who in their forties or fifties go apart, who have had a perfectly decent life together with the child, but they interpreted their union in terms of relationship through the child.
They did not interpret it in terms of their own personal relationship to each other.
BILL MOYERS:
Utterly incompatible with the idea of 'Doing One’s Own Thing'?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
It’s not one’s own thing, you see.
It is in a sense one’s own thing,
but the one isn’t just you, it’s the two together.
And that’s a purely mythological image, of the sacrifice of the visible entity for a transcendent unit, cracking eggs to make an omelet, you know?
And by marrying The Right Person,
we reconstruct the image of the incarnate god,
and that’s what marriage is.
BILL MOYERS:
The right person. How does one choose the right person?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Your heart tells you; it ought to.
BILL MOYERS:
Your inner being.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
That’s the mystery.
BILL MOYERS:
You recognize your other self.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL:
Well, I don’t know, but there’s a flash that comes and something in you knows that this is the one.
